1. Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
    Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here

Chris Biro on unweaned parrots and the Dutch banning of hand raised parrots.

Discussion in 'Behavior Byway' started by GlassOnion, 4/17/14.

  1. GlassOnion

    GlassOnion Biking along the boulevard

    Joined:
    2/8/11
    Messages:
    5,275
    I thought I'd share what Chris Biro, the world famous free flight trainer has to say regarding this new law. In the thread comments, Chris writes about why he feels this law does not benefit anyone involved, and it's quite interesting. He shares the same beliefs as Steve Hartman of Parrot University. I'm curious as to what folks on AA have to say about this. :)

    Chris Biro - This is a disaster in the making. The same... | Facebook
     
  2. Despicio

    Despicio Walking the driveway

    Joined:
    10/1/13
    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    England
    Well he sounds like a bit of an idiot who hasn't actually read any literature on the matter.
     
    gibsongrrrl and JLcribber like this.
  3. melissasparrots

    melissasparrots Rollerblading along the road Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

    Joined:
    1/8/11
    Messages:
    3,686
    Location:
    Iowa
    I didn't actually read all the comments. I would suspect he feels this way because I bet its much easier to train an unweaned chick not to fly away than an older bird that is already flying, not familiar with the freedom of the outdoors and weaned by someone else. If you hand-feed it yourself and have it outdoors frequently during the flapping and hopping stage and while the bird is still food dependent, then you can do recall training WAY easier. I have baby birds that have recently fledged flying to me and begging for food all time. An already weaned or adult bird, its WAY harder. Plus, with a bird that was weaned by someone else, its going to take a few weeks to get a good bond going. So you aren't going to get the bird flying across the room every single time on recall on the first night home.

    The only pet bird I've been able to consistently do recall training with was trained basically like you'd train a passage hawk. Basically, you get it hungry enough so its desperate to take that first jump to the hand. If not hungry enough, you can stand 2 feet away and the bird will lean this way and that and act like they just don't understand the concept of flying to the hand for food. This from a bird that otherwise has been fully flighted and will gladly fly from point A to point B in the living room. Ask it to come to your hand when called and it seems to be a different deal for them. The only time I've really recall trained a parrot was more on accident when it was just on a diet for its own good. Daffy my quaker was just way too fat and headed for liver disease so his food was being tightly rationed. He was pretty hungry. I'd previously tried to recall train the bird with clicker training and it came to me when it felt like it. After the bird is trained and jumping to the hand, then you can start increasing distance and once you get instant response under a variety of circumstances, then you can start increasing food rations so the bird doesn't feel famished all the time. That is how falconers do it. With a parrot, by the time you've done all this and you've conditioned it to really consistent recall, you might be able to do away with weight management and food rations because the bird is bonded to you and wants to be with you. Probably would work especially well with cockatoos and macaws if I were to hazard a guess without reading a bunch of Chris Biro's stuff. Although even then I bet there would be significant variation from one bird to the next.

    If you get a chick that hasn't fledged yet and still has that instinctive need to hang out with mom and dad for food, then you don't have to mess around with keeping the bird hungry. In fact, I'm under the impression this is one of the reasons some falconers choose to fly imprints as apposed to already fledged wild caughts or parent raised birds. In case anyone was wondering, I'm reasonably confident that hawks imprint differently than parrots, so while there might be a small bit of overlap in terms of initial training for recall, after the bird has been weaned for a bit, a parrot is going to act like a parrot regardless of who raised it. This shouldn't degrade into a discussion against hand-feeding.

    I still disagree with selling unweaned chicks in most cases. The average person just doesn't know how to handle and prevent medical problems or how to wean a bird correctly. And yes, he is right I suspect that many people wean them wrong. Unfortunately, he seems to be under the impression breeders wean them wrong in a sterile environment and pet owners are going to do everything right. Now, lets think about this. Give the bird to someone else that has never weaned a parrot before and may not have even handled a parrot before. Talk about a recipe for a poorly weaned bird. Also possibly a dead bird. I suppose if I specifically wanted to fly a pet bird outdoors, I'd probably want to get an unweaned chick. However, being as I'm one of those people that free-flies the predatory birds that would like to eat a parrot, personally I'd rather not have my parrots flying loose. Having to chase off bald eagles and haggard hawks coming in to harass my falconry bird doesn't thrill me. I'd be in a state of panic if I had to do that for my pet. Personally I'd rather have my pets enjoy their outside time either on a harness or in an aviary. Plus, being as our much loved pets are a non-native species, I personally think they shouldn't be flying loose anyway. My hawk is a native species. If she decides not to come home with me some day, she can just resume life as a wild bird and its not a disaster.
     
  4. GlassOnion

    GlassOnion Biking along the boulevard

    Joined:
    2/8/11
    Messages:
    5,275
    You're right in that with fledging parrots, you don't need to rely on food to train for flight.

    I too, have read that for recall training, you can initially use weight management for building motivation then slowly increase the food amount until the bird is back at (ad-lib)free-fed weight if not higher, while maintaining the "psychological appetite" that drives the bird to train. Steve Martin of Natural Encounters coined this concept and I believe it is the most effective way to recall train a bird. If anyone else wants to read further on this..
    http://www.naturalencounters.com/im...he_Mouse_Went_Down_The_Hole-Cassie_Malina.pdf
     
  5. InTheAir

    InTheAir Rollerblading along the road

    Joined:
    7/11/13
    Messages:
    1,082
    Real Name:
    Claire
    In a perfect world every potential parrot owner would do their research first and get hands on experience. But they don't. The first thing I read on a forum this morning was another example of how easy it is to stuff up hand feeding and I can't even repeat it because it makes me feel so absolutely sick to the core!
     
  6. melissasparrots

    melissasparrots Rollerblading along the road Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

    Joined:
    1/8/11
    Messages:
    3,686
    Location:
    Iowa
    Its often very natural to increase weight on a free flying bird. They build up so much muscle from really flying at prey(or away from predators in the case of parrots) that you almost need to start upping their weight. The lowest I had my hawk was to get the first jump to the glove and then on the first few free flights. After she got the routine down, I upped her weight a couple ounces. It really makes for a more powerful bird and helped her handle gusts of wind better. Unfortunately, for many that live in less than idea conditions or that are less than expert at training, free flying is a quick path to a lost or dead bird. I'd really like to try flying a cute little kestrel someday. But we've got coopers hawks that come out of the woodwork around here and like to buzz my redtailed hawk when we are doing flight training. Coops are bird hunting experts and I'd worry they would make short work of a little kestrel that isn't acting as hypervigilant about predators because of its association with people. I'd feel really terrible if a bird of mine got killed by one of our coopers hawks. For that reason, I won't free fly a pet bird outside and if I decide to try another local species for falconry, I might just go with an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" attitude and fly a coopers.

    There was a time I would have been sorely tempted to free fly a macaw. And as mentioned in the article, I'd probably go for a blue and gold or scarlet that I hand-fed myself if I were to do that. However, having worked with flying predators and not only how quick they are but also how quickly things can go wrong even when everything seems to be right, I would not free fly a pet species. Its kind of nice with hawks, because you can put telemetry on them and if if blown off by a gust of wind or chased off but not killed by an eagle, you can still track them and find them. A parrot would pick off the telemetry device super fast and you'd just be out of luck. If you don't find your bird fast, it will likely die in most of the northern USA. I'm not sure I agree with a lot of Chris Biro's stuff. A lot of it is motivated by his stance on free flight, which isn't necessarily best for the average pet owner.
     
    elfhome, Anne & Gang and GlassOnion like this.
  7. Ueda96

    Ueda96 Rollerblading along the road Avenue Veteran

    Joined:
    10/24/10
    Messages:
    3,074
    Location:
    Eastern Washington
    Real Name:
    Jay
    I can see the good in that law.

    If I were ever to breed in the future I'd always planned to co-parent, anyway.
     
    InTheAir likes this.
  8. petiteoiseau

    petiteoiseau Rollerblading along the road

    Joined:
    12/7/13
    Messages:
    1,165
    Real Name:
    Bibi
    Unfortunately, Chris Biro has become part of the 'industry' so I am not surprised he feels this way. Needless to say, I disagree with him. Co-parenting is the only kind way of raising a parrot and selling unweaned babies (and the weaning age should be determined by experts and not just what a breeder tells you because they might just be trying to 'move' the merchandise faster) should be illegal everywhere.
     
    Ziggy Stardust likes this.
  9. shanlung

    shanlung Sprinting down the street Avenue Veteran

    Joined:
    10/16/09
    Messages:
    355
    Real Name:
    shanlung
    Chris Biro is NOT a famous free flight trainer as he like others to think he is. By yanking little chicks from their real parents and pretending to be surrogate parent for birdie to fly to him.

    Here is what I do think of those kind of practises


    What prompted me to write mentality of grey // Imprinting of birds// A fairy in my life

    extract from above


    88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

    In a couple of other forums, I intruded onto their threads on how wonderful it is to get hand fed birdies as your sure path on the promised road to a birdie that will be very tame and tolerant of you. That the birdies will do everything including dancing the tango with you.

    Started of course, by people who were commercially selling unweaned birdies or selling their proudly proclaimed handfed birdies.

    I had to add my 2 bit.
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    I do not believe at all the promotion of handfed birdies as being tamed and more easily bonded to people.

    I go even beyond that.

    I have very dim view on 'hand raising' of birds.
    That deprived the little birdie on proper interactions with its parents and designed to hopefully 'imprint' on it that he/she is a human. Are we that incapable of understanding and training with a bird that we felt compelled to rip a baby from his/her parents?

    This lead to the marketing and selling of birdies thats not weaned. Perhaps better the profits to the breeders, but is that a better life for the birdie?
    Or is a perceived easier life to us the only thing that matter?

    Of course, claims of 'handraising' sells especially to people who do not know and wanted something quickly.

    It seems too that handraised birdies later on developed serious psychological problems.

    The sad part is even older birds, and birds caught from the wild, are really trainable.
    Riamfada was a wild caught CAG as seen in her open leg ring. She was a rescue and given to my charge when she was about 5-6 years old. She came to me bitey and fearful.


    [​IMG]

    In about a year, she was doing free flights to me.

    [​IMG]

    Yingshiong above is a white rumped shama. A shama is a songbird. He was caught from the wild at about 3 years old. He was given into my charge at about 5 years old. He flew to me on cue within a month of coming to me. Breeders of shamas told me even their breed shamas , some they hand raised, never ever landed on them. They told me above was the first ever they seen of a male shama landing on a human.

    [​IMG]

    Libai is a Greater Greenleaf song bird. Caught from the wild and probably about 3 years old or so when he came to me.

    Even wild caught and old birds can be so easily trained and bonded if you know how.

    Understanding them is the first and most important step that can be taken.
    That is the most fundamental truth in looking after birds. Read the Understanding the mind of your grey and other parrots

    Even wild caught and old birds can be so easily trained and bonded if you give them the respect , dignity and courtesy due to intelligent sentients.

    As for hand raised birdies I suggest to folks with open mind to read this article by Jane Hollander

    Congo and Timnehs' Is There a Difference?

    That article was titled "Congos and Timnehs, Is There A Difference?"
    But in reading that, I found it was more than that, relating the post natal caring of the birdies by its birdie parents that make a HUGE difference.
    That many of the problems with captive bred and handraised birdies did not exist with captured birds. That trend extended to cockatoos too.

    But of course, people with vested interests in selling 'handraised' birds that they make out to have greater value will always want to tell you that is the smartest and the best thing you can do.

    With that, I seen with sickness in my heart so many baby birds sold in birdshops with eyes still close as 'handraising' them will make them fond of you. A big lie fostered by people with vested interests.

    I wrote a few years ago of that in my Livejournal and the comments of others with problems on handraised birds were so disturbing.

    For those who still have nagging doubts that I was wrong in discouraging 'handraisded' birdies" and needed more than what Jane Hollander wrote, here is another very interesting article which underlined my concern. That was written by Micheal Doolan, an Avian vet, detailing the screaming, self mutilation, aggression and other problems.

    Natural Birdsmanship – Understanding/Treating Behavior Problems in Imprinted Birds
    http://www.charlieandpeggy.com/mikedoolan.pdf

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


    8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
     
    Ziggy Stardust likes this.
  10. RocketBo

    RocketBo Walking the driveway

    Joined:
    8/18/15
    Messages:
    152
    Real Name:
    Bobo
    You don't need unweaned baby parrot to fly outside. Weaned babies are just as capable and easy to train, speaking from experience. If the opposition is due to free flight, it is standing on a shaky ground. I can understand if the opposition is due to inconvenience though...
     
  11. SueA555

    SueA555 Rollerblading along the road

    Joined:
    8/19/13
    Messages:
    1,778
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    Real Name:
    Sue Anderson
    I have had both baby birds and rescue birds. They are both capable of bonding, and make excellent companions.
     
  12. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Jogging around the block

    Joined:
    10/12/15
    Messages:
    845
    Location:
    Wichita Kansas
    Real Name:
    Jodie Reed
    That guy just touched a nerve with me. Probably my last good nerve. He is so full of himself it's just nauseating. Sorry to be so judgemental. I'm sure he has many good qualities.
     
    gibsongrrrl likes this.
  13. gibsongrrrl

    gibsongrrrl Courtney Lou Hoo Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

    Joined:
    7/3/10
    Messages:
    9,292
    Real Name:
    Courtney Lou Hoo
    I don't agree with selling unweaned parrots at all. Sounds like he has his own agenda. "take my class to learn why this is bad" . Next:cautious:
     
  14. JLcribber

    JLcribber Joyriding the Neighborhood Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran Shutterbugs' Best Crash Test Dummy

    Joined:
    10/16/09
    Messages:
    20,438
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Real Name:
    John
    Flippin' blow hard. You can't fix stupid.
     
    gibsongrrrl and Ziggy Stardust like this.
  15. shanlung

    shanlung Sprinting down the street Avenue Veteran

    Joined:
    10/16/09
    Messages:
    355
    Real Name:
    shanlung

    You do not need to rip baby birds from their parents, unless you are Chris Biro, to get them to fly in the open.
    You do need to talk to your birdies, and most important of all, to listen to them , to know them and to bond with them.

    I do know the Taiwanese folks in the following videos.
    Their birdies are not baby birds ripped from their parents for pathetic imprintings.
    Sit back and watch.

    FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
    NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD.

    Taken near Taipei North Taiwan.
    While birdies do fly away and never come back, birdies do chose to come back.
    That will require a very strong relationship such that the birdies do want to come back.
    Such relationships based on companionship.
    If you feel you must be MASTER and birdies to answer the MASTER command, this is not for you


     
  16. Tyrion

    Tyrion Rollerblading along the road Celebirdy of the Month

    Joined:
    1/22/15
    Messages:
    4,651
    Location:
    Oh Canada
    Real Name:
    Annette Thompson
    Great links shanlung very informative :D
     
    Ziggy Stardust likes this.
  17. SpecialistElbru

    SpecialistElbru Sprinting down the street

    Joined:
    4/18/15
    Messages:
    569
    Location:
    Texas USA
    I can't seam to find any other post in his blog (I'm not a member of Facebook). I've really only watched his YouTube clips, so I don"t know a whole lot about him.

    The single post that was pointed to was mostly worthless. In it, he mainly makes bold faced assertions with no supporting statements to backup what is being asserted. There is a group of behaviorist that say that parental deprivation may lead to feather picking. Chris Biro says that it doesn't, he says, not hand feeding the chick does, so there! Nana-a-bobo!

    The post looks more like a plug for his new book.
     
  18. Bokkapooh

    Bokkapooh Ripping up the road Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

    Joined:
    10/18/09
    Messages:
    25,455
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Real Name:
    Mercedez
    I use to like Chris Biro, but of late I question some of the things he says.

    For example:

    Here in Seattle WA we had a goffin cockatoo randomly set loose because "He is happier to be free and explore, and look he still knows to come home".

    I saw on Craigs List someone at a park on Capitol Hill Hit baseball WITH A BAT at the coffin cockatoo!! So this good person who saw this posted this on CL.

    The goffin was found by someone and the wings clipped and then found the owner. Well although I do not agree with clipping the wings the person who let loose the goffins says she will still let the cockatoo loose!!!!

    Well this sparked a lot from the online NW community.

    And then Chris Biro back this stupid owners actions.

    THIS IS DOWN TOWN SEATTLE 1/8 mile from major free way, and just feet from 4 lane traffic and major bus ways and such. And the people here can suck. Like the man at the park hitting baseballs at the loose goffins cockatoo.

    Since then, my respect for Chris Biro has gone way down.

    He still great at free flight. I won't argue this. But I now doubt his judgment.

    CITIES ARE NO PLACE FOR LETTING COMPANION PARROTS LOOSE.

    This was not even recall flight. This was negligence. Throw cockatoo out the window and then go to work sort of negligence.

    NOT RIGHT.
     
  19. shanlung

    shanlung Sprinting down the street Avenue Veteran

    Joined:
    10/16/09
    Messages:
    355
    Real Name:
    shanlung
    I never relied on food deprivation, the so-called weight management for any training.
    Another word for that will be starvation but guess that is not a good word to maintain own dignity.
    Or coined "psychological appetite" and likewise invent other terms.

    Nothing about treating the birdie with respect , dignity and courtesy and love for them as intelligent sentients.
    Those concepts can be so easily overcome and made redundant by appropriate weight management.

    So MASTERSHIP and being ALPHA over little birdies can be maintained by lord and Master.

    The trainings that I did were almost always done after their breakfast. Or they interrupt their breakfast to do training with me. And in midst of trainings, might go back for a beakful more of breakfast before flying back to me to resume
    the trainings. I recorded enough of that in real time in my blogs.
    With full stomachs, their response to me were carried out in split second timing with almost military precision. I never realised I have been doing things wrong and backwards from those of others more clever and inventive than me , especially in coining words and concepts.

    Maybe thats why I could get Tink and Riamfada to do free flights in the open.
    And so did many others as can be seen in the videos I attached now and then.

    But to each their own ways.
     
    Bokkapooh likes this.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)