Can't get my tiels back in the cage.

[hope86]

Hi everyone,

I got my two cockatiels from a pet store 2 and a half weeks ago. They're both around a year old and are untamed.

From what I've been reading, I really don't have it too bad. I can change their food and water bowls (they slide out of cage) without them even moving. They're scared of new food and new toys and get slightly spooked when I slide out the tray to clean it. I can't put my hand in their cage to clean it because they go crazy.

Their wings aren't clipped and I can't stand the thought of traumatizing them by taking them to a vet. Not yet anyway.

Worried about them becoming cage bound and depressed, I started leaving their cage door open a few days ago. Charlie, the boy, poked his head out for a second and that was it. Coco, my brave girl, sat right under the door all day. Same thing happened the next day. On the third day, Coco flew out almost immediately and Charlie quickly followed. They panicked a little, screamed a few times and then landed on the floor. They spent the rest of the day, from noon until 7:30pm, between the curtains and the window, just staring out and chirping. I thought they'd go back to their cage on their own when they got hungry but they were so happy to be out I think they forgot it existed.

Eventually, I had to grab them to put them back in. They screamed bloody murder and Coco bit me super hard. I don't know who was more traumatized by the experience, my birdies or myself. I felt so guilty for scaring them.

They glared at me for the rest of the night and all of next day. They're back to themselves now but I don't know what to do. On the bright side, I got to scrub their cage clean.

Should I wait until they trust me a little more and at the very least take treats from my hands? (They're a long ways from that.) Or should I take their food bowl out a couple of hours before letting them out again and hope they'll be hungry enough to go back in?

Coco has been trying to lift the door up and even tries squeezing herself through the bars.

 

[Monica]

They're scared of new food and new toys and get slightly spooked when I slide out the tray to clean it. I can't put my hand in their cage to clean it because they go crazy.
Does the top of the cage separate from the bottom? If yes, that makes it easier to clean the bottom of the cage.


Their wings aren't clipped and I can't stand the thought of traumatizing them by taking them to a vet. Not yet anyway.
I don't recommend clipping birds, not even for taming purposes. A bird will be tame and trusting of humans *IF* they choose to go to you, regardless of being flighted or clipped. I've heard of plenty of stories where clipped birds are tame and friendly, but the moment those birds have flight, they want nothing to do with humans! That, to me, tells me that the birds may not have been tamed and worked with correctly.


Eventually, I had to grab them to put them back in. They screamed bloody murder and Coco bit me super hard. I don't know who was more traumatized by the experience, my birdies or myself. I felt so guilty for scaring them.
Instead of having them go back to the cage on their own, could you try taking the cage to them?



Should I wait until they trust me a little more and at the very least take treats from my hands? (They're a long ways from that.)
If you want to try going this route, try feeding millet from outside of the cage bars. That is, choose a spot where both can reach, then put millet against the cage bars. They'll have to stick their beaks through the cage bars to get to the millet. Do this for a few minutes, a few times a day. They can quickly learn to associate good things with you.


Or should I take their food bowl out a couple of hours before letting them out again and hope they'll be hungry enough to go back in?
This I doubt would work.... Over 7 hours without food and they didn't go back in on their own. They should have been hungry enough by that time to go back in.


Maybe you'll find some inspiration in this thread.

"Self-Tamed" Cockatiels | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

 

[hope86]

Hi Monica,

I can pull out the tray under the cage to change the paper but can't separate the cage from the bottom to scrub the poop off the bottom of the cage (above tray), or the poop covered perches.

I agree with you about the wing clipping.

I did roll the cage over right next to them and even aimed the open door towards them. They took one look at it and then turned their heads back towards the window.

I read your thread. Thank you for sharing! I know I must be patient, I'm only in a rush to let them spread their wings, I can wait for their love and affection. Haven't tried millet spray yet but I took all the sunflower seeds out of their food and I'm using those as treats and leaving them on a perch or bottom corner of the cage and Coco started picking them up so that's some progress.

I'm also thinking to earn their trust some more before letting them out again.

Thank you so much.

 

[blewin]

If they have been eating in the cage, they know where the food is. They may have actually been getting food or water when you weren't watching.

I would leave the cage by the window (since they clearly like it), and work from there. We have Buddy's cage by the window, just so that she can have something to look at when we're not home. It gives her the chance to scream at all those horrible birds invading her space.

 

[ode.to.parrots]

Just wondering, but what sort of diet are your birds currently on?

For my flock, I personally just offer them seeds and nuts when my fiance and I are around, especially during "training" sessions. They get really excited and always look forward to this part of their day. When it is time for them to go back, I usually just put a few seeds or cashews in their food bowl and let them go back on their own. One of my tiels is super hands off, but he'll fly back on his own when I put his favorite food in there, although it will sometimes take several minutes.

 

[Begone]

I'm also thinking to earn their trust some more before letting them out again.

And I'm always doing the opposite. If they are allowed to be out and flying they get ride of excess energy and will be a lot easier to tame.
I have tamed all my birds outside the cage, and I'm doing it like this in the beginning.
2-4 hrs before the sunset I let them out. And the first thing I do is always to clean the cage first.
And then I make my self interesting. Playing with some ball or other toys that sounds. And I always have some of their favorite treats near.
And I sing to them, talk to them, but never trying to touch them.
When it is dark outside and they not have gone inside their cage by themselves, I make the room almost dark and with very slow movements I'm using a long perch (same perch as they have in their cage is the best) that they will step up on and with that perch get them back to the cage. It will take less and less time for every day, and I think the most if you are just patience it will take 10-20 minutes. That is not much consider that they are not tame. And they really need to come out and fly.

When you have done this for some days so they know the room, and where to get food, I will let them out earlier and earlier for every day so they will get hungry and start seeking for their food.
And I will have a food bowl with their favorite food on the cage roof. Once they find the food they will realize that they can get back to the cage and their is their food. Cage is good, cage is food and water.
And when that's done, remove the bowl from the roof and let themselves find the food in the cage instead. They will.
And they will also stay in the cage if it's getting darker outside. They learn so fast.

I think that you allowed them out was a really good thing to do. They should not be in their cages, cages are for eating and sleeping and when you are not at home.
One thing you must do and that is to make them great places to hang out on. They like high places so to hang some swings in the roof is very popular.
I have net, swings, big roof playstand in every room, mine are always out, and I will never have mine in their cages when I'm home. I love to give them this freedom.
And never clip them. They need to fly to stay healthy, and it is a joy to see them happy flying around, chasing each other.

 

[hope86]

If they have been eating in the cage, they know where the food is. They may have actually been getting food or water when you weren't watching.

Hi Blewin, I was home the entire time because I didn't know what trouble they would get into. It was their first time out of the cage and I was worried they would hurt themselves. I didn't even leave the room for more than a few minutes at a time.

Just wondering, but what sort of diet are your birds currently on?

Hi Ode to Parrots, store bought mix of seeds and grains and I mix in bite size veggies. They've hated all fruits and most veggies I've offered so far so I sneak the veggies in and I'm still trying to figure out what they like.

And I'm always doing the opposite. If they are allowed to be out and flying they get ride of excess energy and will be a lot easier to tame.
I have tamed all my birds outside the cage, and I'm doing it like this in the beginning.
2-4 hrs before the sunset I let them out. And the first thing I do is always to clean the cage first.
And then I make my self interesting. Playing with some ball or other toys that sounds. And I always have some of their favorite treats near.
And I sing to them, talk to them, but never trying to touch them.
When it is dark outside and they not have gone inside their cage by themselves, I make the room almost dark and with very slow movements I'm using a long perch (same perch as they have in their cage is the best) that they will step up on and with that perch get them back to the cage. It will take less and less time for every day, and I think the most if you are just patience it will take 10-20 minutes. That is not much consider that they are not tame. And they really need to come out and fly.

When you have done this for some days so they know the room, and where to get food, I will let them out earlier and earlier for every day so they will get hungry and start seeking for their food.
And I will have a food bowl with their favorite food on the cage roof. Once they find the food they will realize that they can get back to the cage and their is their food. Cage is good, cage is food and water.
And when that's done, remove the bowl from the roof and let themselves find the food in the cage instead. They will.
And they will also stay in the cage if it's getting darker outside. They learn so fast.

I think that you allowed them out was a really good thing to do. They should not be in their cages, cages are for eating and sleeping and when you are not at home.
One thing you must do and that is to make them great places to hang out on. They like high places so to hang some swings in the roof is very popular.
I have net, swings, big roof playstand in every room, mine are always out, and I will never have mine in their cages when I'm home. I love to give them this freedom.
And never clip them. They need to fly to stay healthy, and it is a joy to see them happy flying around, chasing each other.

Hi Eloy, I think that me and anything I do is far from interesting to them. I'm just a deadly predator at the moment and they need to watch me to make sure I don't eat them. It was also getting very dark (yes at 7:30pm) and they couldn't care less. Their little eyes were closing and they started grinding their beaks. I think they'd be happy to go to sleep right there, thirsty and hungry, but free for what must have been the first time for them.

I think you're absolutely right about places to hang out.

Putting the food bowl on top of the cage is a great idea since the cage can also be opened from the top (it folds out) but will they even care? And if they do, I just hope they don't fly away after a few of their favorite sunflower seeds.

Things to figure out I guess.

Thank you all for your suggestions.

 

[Shinobi]

No putting hands inside the cage. No chasing the bird around the cage or room. (forcing the bird) instead Conducted lots of trust building and bonding sessions (training). I have had great success with the following method to bond and build trust.

This how I bonded and built trust with an aviary bred bird and have used it on other birds. I obtained an aviary bred IRN a few years ago who we named Bluey. When people approached Bluey he would thrash around the cage in fear. So I needed some tools to address this problem. 1 was a clicker, 2 was training treats.

Clickers are the best for training. Do some research? B F Skinner is a good start. Clicks won't confuse the bird. Where has words can. Without realising, words can be changed. It doesn't seem much, but it is to a bird. Has an example you might be saying "good boy". Then you say "that's a good boy" or you’re a good bird. Clickers are a bridge to identify wanted behaviour between you and your bird.

Second by putting five different foods on a plate and watch which one Bluey ate first, I worked out what Bluey Training treat was. I used sunflower seeds, corn kernels, pine nuts, grapes and balls of millet and I removed this food from Bluey diet. Whatever your bird picks, it must not be part of the bird’s diet otherwise it defeats the purpose of being a training treat. He chose sunflower seeds with millet a close second.

These are the procedures I used to calm and interact with him.
Bluey was in a cage in the lounge room. With the clicker in my hand, I entered the lounge room and went to the furthest point away from the cage. Then I would slowly approach the cage until Bluey showed signs of fear. When your bird becomes small and "skinny," and the bird's crop often looks sucked in, and all the feathers lie flat on the body. It usually means the bird is scared.

I would stop and stand there until Bluey relaxed.
Relaxed feathers and wings, standing on one foot, preening and /or grinding his upper and lower mandible together to produce a scratchy or "zippy" noise. The bird is probably content and relaxed. But the bird might not display all these signs but relaxed feathers and wings, standing on one foot are a sure sign.

When Bluey relaxed, I click the clicker and took 3 slow steps backwards waited 20 to 30 seconds. Then, again I would slowly approach the cage until Bluey showed signs of fear. But this time I got a bit closer to the cage. Then I would stop and stand there until Bluey relaxed.

When Bluey relaxed I click the clicker and took 3 slow steps backwards waited 20 to 30 seconds. I repeated this procedure and with each approach, I would get a bit closer to the cage until I was standing next to the cage and Bluey was relaxed.

When this was achieved I would leave the room for 20 to 30 minutes. Then I would repeat this procedure for 5 to 7 times that day. By the end of the day you should be able to slowly walk up to the cage and the bird should stay relaxed.

Note: This is important and that is, not to force the bird to do something it doesn't want to do. Let it approach the millet.

Once I was able to walk up to the cage without Bluey being scared, I would start to offer millet to Bluey through the cage where the perch is attached. If he didn't take a bite of the millet within 15 seconds, I would remove the millet from his sight for 20 to 30 seconds. Then re-offer the millet. When Bluey was on the perch and took a bite, I click the clicker and withdraw the millet but kept it in Bluey sight. Then I would re-offer the millet. I would repeat until Bluey finished eating the millet or was eating anymore. I repeated this 3 times daily.

Note: I used a spray of millet first has it was a larger training treat and it allowed Bluey to get use to my hand. Once Bluey became use to my hand I started to reduce the size of the millet until I could use sunflower seeds.

Note: By removing the Millet from the Bird's sight you encourage the "what have I just missed out on. Was that food? Where did it go? Then when you re-offer the millet. The bird thinks I'm not going to miss out again.

Note: Don't put your hand inside the cage has the bird could see this has invasion of their territory.

This is more towards interacting with your bird to build trust/bonding. Once you have establish a bond of trust with your bird you can start to train basic tricks. Then advance to more tricks if you desire. Use the clicker to identify the desired behaviour and the training treats and praise to reinforce that desired behaviour. It's no secret, you just need to spend time interacting and training with your bird.

The clicker is the bridge between you and your bird and you use that bridge to highlight the bird’s desired behaviour to your bird.
The advice I can give is
1 move very slowly around the bird
2 let the bird come to you.
3 Don't force the bird to do anything that it doesn't want to do.
4 make the trust building and bonding sessions (training) fun
5 end all training sessions on a positive.
6 patience.

Remember food is a great motivator.

 

[hope86]

Hi Shinobi,

I've only attempted to put my hand into the cage once to wipe some poop off the perch but never attempted to do it again as it scared them. I'm definitely not forcing myself on them.

I'm happy that I can already approach the cage without them getting jumpy. When I take out their water and food bowls they don't even move most of the time and even if they do they just shuffle over to the other side of the cage. When I slide the tray out to change the paper they move to the top of the cage but no frenzied flying or anything.

I've done some reading on clicker training but didn't know how to begin because they're not taking treats from me just yet. Thank you so much for breaking that down for me, I now see that I can begin using the clicker before they're comfortable enough take treats from my hands. Your post was really helpful, thanks again.

 

[Shinobi]

This was something I wrote a few years ago on a different parrot forum. Try some in the cage training.

 

[Begone]

Clickers are the best for training.

The clicker is the bridge between you and your bird and you use that bridge to highlight the bird’s desired behaviour to your bird.

I don't agree. I have never use a clicker, in fact I had one parrot that was used to a clicker and it took me just some days to put that away for good while training.

Clicks won't confuse the bird.

If you are using the clicker wrong, it will confuse the bird, so my advice is always to train with the only thing that works. And that is...
Timing, timing and timing. And for reward both your happy and exited voice and their favorite treat. But timing is everything!
To say that that "the clicker is the bridge to you and your bird" to a member that have no experience in taming birds is so wrong.
The only bridge is food, patience, food and creating a trusting bond. And food, and food, and food. Did I say food?

 

[Begone]

I'm happy that I can already approach the cage without them getting jumpy. When I take out their water and food bowls they don't even move most of the time and even if they do they just shuffle over to the other side of the cage. When I slide the tray out to change the paper they move to the top of the cage but no frenzied flying or anything.

And I forgot to say..
For that short time you have make great progress.
So you must be doing something really good already. Perhaps you are calm and moving slow?
Just continue doing what you are doing, and learn them to take treats from your hand and they will soon trust you enough to let you interact with them.

I read for a while ago about a person that attached millet on top of her head. Her budgies soon find the millet and was enjoying a millet ride with her.
That was her way taming them, and I thought that it was really smart.

 

[Shinobi]

I don't agree. I have never use a clicker, in fact I had one parrot that was used to a clicker and it took me just some days to put that away for good while training.

If you are using the clicker wrong, it will confuse the bird, so my advice is always to train with the only thing that works. And that is...
Timing, timing and timing. And for reward both your happy and exited voice and their favorite treat. But timing is everything!
To say that that "the clicker is the bridge to you and your bird" to a member that have no experience in taming birds is so wrong.
The only bridge is food, patience, food and creating a trusting bond. And food, and food, and food. Did I say food?

People are entitled to their opinions. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean that my opinion on clickers is wrong, bad or doesn't work. A clicker isn't hard to use or will be used wrong. I have used a clicker for years with outstanding results. I have never heard or read of a training method called timing but I did find that timing is part of training. So exactly what training method are you referring to when you say "And that is...Timing, timing and timing." and can you provide me a link please. has I would to see if it's worth incorporating into my training system.

The Aviary bred IRN I had was clicker trained and was progressing quite well until she died. She was stepping up and down from within the cage and was starting to fly from her stand to me and then back. Thanks to clicker Training. An Alexandrine I once had and in one year he was performing numerous tricks faultlessly, and that included recall training,Thanks to clicker Training. This only required 30 minutes of training twice a day. The female Eclectus that I was recently given, had behavioural issues (Aggressive/biting/antisocial) I used a clicker to rectify her behaviour. In less than 4 months, she is now a gentle and sweet bird. Thanks to clicker Training. All my birds step up and down from within the cage, something a lot of people can't achieve with their parrot.

It's harder to be consistent with WORDS then with a CLICK from a clicker and regardless of weither you use a clicker or words, timing is important.
So when you quote me, how about putting in the WHOLE paragraph to ensure that the whole context is shown. I also mention to do some research.

Clickers are the best for training. Do some research? B F Skinner is a good start. Clicks won't confuse the bird. Where has words can. Without realising, words can be changed. It doesn't seem much, but it is to a bird. Has an example you might be saying "good boy". Then you say "that's a good boy" or you’re a good bird. Clickers are a bridge to identify wanted behaviour between you and your bird.

The clicker is the bridge between you and your bird and you use that bridge to highlight the bird’s desired behaviour to your bird. Training treats are not the bridge, they are the reward at the end of the bridge and patience is the time taken to go over the bridge.

Once, like everyone else I was inexperienced in the training of birds. But I did research and found that the method that stood out from the rest was clicker training. it's been used on just about every animal, including humans. Of course you can substitute the clicker with words, but unless you use the same words all the time the bird will become confused.

The only source of knowledge is experience. So for the inexperience to become knowledgeable, they must do.

 

[hope86]

And I forgot to say..
For that short time you have make great progress.
So you must be doing something really good already. Perhaps you are calm and moving slow?

I read for a while ago about a person that attached millet on top of her head. Her budgies soon find the millet and was enjoying a millet ride with her.

I am moving super slow, never any sudden movements and I spend lots of time sitting close to their cage, talking to them or reading. Unfortunately, Coco stopped eating the sunflower seeds I've been leaving her. She just picks them up and spits them right out. I think it's her way of saying "I don't want your stupid treats, I want OUT".

I put a raspberry in the corner of the cage yesterday and they avoided that corner all day until i removed it. Silly birds :glowlol:

I've been giving them mist showers to control the dander, most of the time they lazily shuffle out of the way but they each really enjoyed it at least once, lifting their wings for me and chirping happily. In that moment it seems it doesn't matter how close I get to them with the spray bottle, they're just in water heaven.

I'm not above putting millet on my head

And thank you for your input on clicker training. I just have a Snapple top and can't get it to click the same every time so I haven't started yet.

People are entitled to their opinions. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean that my opinion on clickers is wrong, bad or doesn't work. A clicker isn't hard to use or will be used wrong. I have used a clicker for years with outstanding results. I have never heard or read of a training method called timing but I did find that timing is part of training. So exactly what training method are you referring to when you say "And that is...Timing, timing and timing." and can you provide me a link please. has I would to see if it's worth incorporating into my training system.

The only source of knowledge is experience. So for the inexperience to become knowledgeable, they must do.

I've read a few sources where bird owners had very good results with clicker training. Eloy is the first to say that's it's not necessary and I appreciate her experience too. I'm still torn to be honest but I'd be lying if I said I haven't made progress in just 2.5 weeks. My biggest concern is getting them back in the cage while we haven't established mutual trust. I don't want to grab them again but I can't stand not letting them out either. I can see poor Coco planning her escape. She inspects everything that can be opened and all the nooks and crannies in her cage. She also tries to get out through the food bowl door after I take the food bowl out.

I think I'm going to buy a couple of perch stands for the room and possibly place one in front of the cage just below the door so that it would easier for them to figure out how to return to the cage.

 

[Monica]

Birds can indeed be tamed without using a clicker. I've done so multiple times.


People who find it difficult to train their birds may find it easier to use clicker training. A clicker is *NOT* required, but is recommended for more concise training.


Although I rarely use a clicker, I still recommend clicker training when done correctly. More specifically, I recommend the training concept behind it. Rewarding desired behavior. Teaching a bird through small approximations to do new behaviors.

 

[Shinobi]

Monica
I do agree that you can train a bird without a clicker, but if clicker training is easier, then why would you use a harder training methodology.

Nearly 80 years ago the traditional animal training was being believed to be a hindrance, by methods of praise and reward then in use, because it didn’t inform the animal of success with enough promptness and precision to create the required cognitive connections for fast learning. enter Clicker training methodology, this animal training method which is based on a bridging stimulus (the clicker)in operant conditioning. The system uses conditioned reinforcers, which can deliver more quickly and more precisely than primary reinforces such as food and praise. The "clicker" is used to precisely mark the desired behaviour. When training a new behaviour, the clicker helps the animal to quickly identify the precise behaviour that results in a training treat. This technique is popular with dog trainers, but has been used for all kinds of domestic and wild animals. Sometimes, instead of a click to mark the desired behaviour, other distinctive sounds are made such as "whistle, a cluck of the tongue, a snap of the fingers, a word, visual or other sensory cues (such as a flashlight, hand sign, or vibrating collar), especially helpful for deaf animals. The term "bridging stimulus" was coined in the 1940s to refer to the function of a secondary reinforcer such as a whistle or click.

The first stage in clicker training is teaching the animal to associate the clicker sound or another chosen marker such as a whistle or word with a training treat. When the sound marker is used, a training treat is immediately offered. The sound marker is used to signal that a desired behaviour has occurred. Some approaches are:

1. capturing: catching the animal in the act of doing a desired behaviour, for example hanging upside down or hopping. Eventually the animal learns to repeat the behaviour for a treat.
   
2. shaping: gradually building a new behavior by rewarding each small step toward it, for example training the parrot to turn around.
   
3. Target training: using a stick to get the animal to move to a desired location or position.

The last stage once the behaviour is learnt, is to add a cue for the desired behaviour, this can be a word or a hand signal. The animal will have learnt that after completing the desired behaviour a treat is on the way. Once a behaviour is learnt and is on cue (command), the clicker and the treats are faded out.

So in a nutshell, clicker training achieves better cognitive connections results.

 

[finchly]

Shinobii, as you said earlier everyone is entitled to their opinion . So, we get yours. Using bigger words won't convince the non-clicker users more strongly.

You have inspired me -- I normally use vocal commands and treats for the fids, but I use a clicker for the dogs. So I am going to try working with my p'let and the clicker. Will let you know how it goes.

BTW there are some good clicker training threads right here on AA. @hope86 read through those (if you don't already have millet on your head). Good luck! I have 2 tiels and adore them. I think they'll be tame very shortly.

 

[Shinobi]

Hello Finchly
I do think that most people here are well educated and are able to understand the meaning of big words. Clicker training was developed by psychologists and behavioural scientists. This the reason why I like Clicker training, it's scientific, proven globally and can be used on just about any animal. I haven't found anything better yet, but if do know of a better training system please post the link as I would like to add to my knowledge. Thanks.

Glad I inspired you.

 

[hope86]

Success!!

I let them out yesterday morning. I kept showing them where the food was (in the cage) but they didn't seem to care.

It took them about 22 hours ( ) to get back in but they made it. I really didn't want to grab them again so I gave them some more time. They slept on the curtain rod.

Now that they know how to get back in I'm hoping to reduce their time out of the cage to under 20 hours in a row

Here's a picture of Coco hogging the food bowl this morning:

 

[Begone]

Congrats! It will take less and less time now for them to get back to their cage now.