Black Cockatoo @ The Local Pet Store

[Hankmacaw]

And this is the continuing story of the Spix Macaw - they are not gone;

Al Wabra Wildlife Preservation » SPIX’S MACAW (2007 – )

Here is their Facebook page - Spix Macaw (AWWP) - Home | Facebook
and a picture of their first 2017 baby Spix hatched.

 

[Tyrion]

For me the rules and regulations of falconry come to mind. It would be nice if there was a standardized body of knowledge (for starters) in order to first define a parrot in terms of its biology (genetic drives, innate behaviors, etc.). Then onto social, exercise and housing needs, etc.

Would this appease the US Fish and Wildlife service in the keeping of endangered species? I don't know. But let's take a native bird of prey such as a Great Horned owl. In my volunteer work with birds of prey at an Audubon Sanctuary I can tell you that they are as cuddly and as affectionate and social as any parrot out there. Yet I can't just go out and trap or buy one, I can't force fit-it into the role of feathered child (terrible two's and timeouts for bad behavior). The law is there to ensure that this native species is respected and given some dignity for what it is. Common practice whether legal or not also guards against humans imprinting these birds. They are trained through positive reinforcement, can be hunting companions, but are also releasable, maintain the ability to survive when released.

As I am not a falconer there may be a lot more to it than this but these are just my thoughts based on what you posted.

For me its a scary thing when some one or people is/are appointed chief of knowing all ...like in the reptile industry (I use as a fall back because I know it best ) there was a person who was given the responsibility of checking the animals before a show/sale to make sure the animals were healthy, if not they were pulled ..now this person had less than a couple years experience with reptiles but because he was a vet was made responsible ...I personally had a problem with this being in my 25 yr of keeping and breeding reptiles and thought what right did this person ,who never kept a reptile in his life ,had inspecting my reptiles just because he was a vet ...I have the same issue if there were people in charge of making rules on how I am to take care of my parrots when they may have never kept one themselves which is normally the case ...now if the people making the rules were people of my peers that would be different but when has that ever happened ...maybe in the falconer world but that would be one in a million ..normally these rules and regulations are made buy the powers that be who have no idea what they are doing and we get stupid rules that only harm the animals ...

As for fees for keeping such animals do you really think that any would go toward conservation with all the animals that are being pulled from the endangered list like the Grey Wolves ...in an ideal world this may work out but not in this one ..in this one more then likely more animals will be taken off ..the powers that be dont care for our animals all they care about is money ...so sure they will add fees if they can but they will not put it to good use ...I wish I had more confidence in the powers that be but they have proven to be nothing but in it for the money and have no interest in helping our animals

 

[Hankmacaw]

The most frightening 10 words in the English language; "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."

 

[Sarahmoluccan]

I agree somewhat... but who gets to make that judgement who is allowed to keep them ..how much money is enough ...how much learning is enough ...and what type of commitment ...I dont want some one to come along and look at me and say well you make x dollars so thats not enough to care for your birds so you shouldnt have them ...and I learn something new everyday about my parrots ...evidently I dont have enough learning if Im still learning ...I believe I have the commitment but there are always others who may say they have more ... I think this guess work about keeping a wild animal is what is it guess work ...everyone has their opinion on what it should be and how they should be kept ...I feel as long as my birds seem happy ...no plucking ...eating...healthy...playing...no screaming ..have a healthy attitude...I think Im doing a good job ...and keep on keeping on ..keep learning new things to keep them happy ..always try to improve ...buy my standers which are very high ...try to look at it from the birds point of view and hope Im guessing right ....ask what else can I do for them ...if we keep wondering if we should be keeping them we miss the point of keeping them ...and to me thats making sure they are kept well

While trying to find how many parrots are in the US or how many are bred each year I came across this Current Law and Suggested Approaches to Improving Captive Bird Welfare I'm think some will not like the source of the information and may dismiss them as racial AR group. While I don't agree with everything they say, I see no reason why they would make this up. What I found particularly interesting were Colorado's laws about cages.

" b. bird Cages. Primary enclosures for birds (cages) shall be maintained in good repair and constructed of metal or other water resistant material which can be cleaned and sanitized.

(1) Minimum Space Requirements

(a) The cage must be large enough to provide full body extension without contact with the confines. The cage must be wide enough in at least one direction to accommodate completely stretched wings.

(b) A single well-placed perch may be adequate for Psittacines ie., the bird can stand completely upright on the perch without having the head contact the ceiling of the cage and at the same time not having the tail contact the floor or grate. For those species, such as Finches, Canaries, etc. that prefer flying or jumping to climbing, two perches, one at each end of the cage, must be provided. Perches must be strategically placed to prevent droppings from contaminating other birds and the birds' food and water and to also prevent the bird's tail from coming into contact with the food and water.

(c) Minimum space requirements for multiple birds housed temporarily depends on the calculated Housing Density Factor and the overall length of the bird as measured from the tip of the tail to the top of the head.

The following calculation will be used to determine the number of birds that can be housed in a given cage:

L x W x H ÷ Density Factor = total length of birds permitted.

Total length of birds permitted ÷ length of bird = number of birds allowed in that size cage

Housing Density Factor Table:

Species: Each bird's overall length (in.) Density Factor
Finch 3 60
Parakeet 8 50
Cockatiel 9-12 60
Cockatiel-type 9-12 (heavier body) 75
Amazon 13-24 325
Cockatoo 25-35 800
Macaw 34-45 1400
Cage measurements are based on the actual living space and do not include T-stands or perches attached to the outside of the cage or the space below the cage grate.

(d) For birds housed over 60 days, the Density Factor should be doubled for birds 12 inches in overall length or less. For birds housed over 90 days, the Density Factor shall be doubled for birds 12 inches in overall length or less.

(e) All cage accessories (ladders, toys, perches, etc.) made of unsealed wood shall be cleaned daily and replaced as often as necessary to maintain sanitary conditions.

(f) For regulations pertaining to breeding birds see Section 13.00."

 

[LaSelva]

Yes, international pressure on the owners of the Spix's macaw's to produce legal documents prompted many of them to seek to relinquish their birds. Luckily one wealthy individual and bird lover was willing, and had pockets deep enough, to buy them up and establish Al Wabra. He has since passed but hopefully his staff will continue his work with the same passion. See Toni Juniper's book for the retelling of the saga.

As an addendum I would like to comment on imprinting as was touched upon above, for those that may not understand the significance. Human imprinted birds of prey are neither suitable for falconry nor fit for release in the event they were illegally taken from the wild and kept as pets. When it comes to the "pet parrot" a hand raised/human bonded bird is the desire (it's what sells). But this is the source of many of their frustrations with captive life.

Tyrion, what I was talking about is not necessarily one person but a standardized body of knowledge not based on individual feelings but on a high standard for academic credibility. If we were to maintain that hunting fees go towards conservation on some levels, hypothetically, why couldn't a system be put in place that would be similar?

 

[Sarahmoluccan]

As for fees for keeping such animals do you really think that any would go toward conservation with all the animals that are being pulled from the endangered list like the Grey Wolves ...in an ideal world this may work out but not in this one ..in this one more then likely more animals will be taken off ..the powers that be dont care for our animals all they care about is money ...so sure they will add fees if they can but they will not put it to good use ...I wish I had more confidence in the powers that be but they have proven to be nothing but in it for the money and have no interest in helping our animals

Do you disagree with dog licences then? I don't. And where the money goes for them? In my city it goes to the local SPCA, as the city has a contract with for providing animal control.

 

[Tyrion]

Yes, international pressure on the owners of the Spix's macaw's to produce legal documents prompted many of them to seek to relinquish their birds. Luckily one wealthy individual and bird lover was willing, and had pockets deep enough, to buy them up and establish Al Wabra. He has since passed but hopefully his staff will continue his work with the same passion. See Toni Juniper's book for the retelling of the saga.

As an addendum I would like to comment on imprinting as was touched upon above, for those that may not understand the significance. Human imprinted birds of prey are neither suitable for falconry nor fit for release in the event they were illegally taken from the wild and kept as pets. When it comes to the "pet parrot" a hand raised/human bonded bird is the desire (it's what sells). But this is the source of many of their frustrations with captive life.

Tyrion, what I was talking about is not necessarily one person but a standardized body of knowledge not based on individual feelings but on a high standard for academic credibility. If we were to maintain that hunting fees go towards conservation on some levels, hypothetically, why couldn't a system be put in place that would be similar?

Imprinting is any kind of phase-sensitive learning (learning occurring at a particular age or a particular life stage) that is rapid and apparently independent of the consequences of behavior ...in parrots can cause allot of problems during the hormonal time but it also can be used to tame your parrot when you first get it as a baby or older ..looking from the parrots point of view it can be frustrating for them ..once we were the parent as they get older now what are we ..the mate ?...what we always are is the flock to them how we act in that flock comes down to us ...I am learning that more and more with my Goffins ..he out of my 3 birds seem to express the need to know where I stand ...he would like me to be mate ...I not so much ...but they all have imprinted on me to a point and I dont think that is such a bad thing since I plan on keeping them till I die ...what is hard is for the bird that gets moved around alot ..

It would be nice if we could have high standard for academic credibility looking out for the integrity of our birds... how they are kept ..bred..sold...but I fear once you get even the thought of politics involved you have those that only want the power of it and then there goes any integrity ..I have seen it in the lowest of things like a reptile society the fight for power over a thing like a non profit society ..its sad ..maybe some day we can have it

 

[Tyrion]

Do you disagree with dog licences then? I don't. And where the money goes for them? In my city it goes to the local SPCA, as the city has a contract with for providing animal control.

To a point ...what real good does it do ...there is dog licenses in my town and no one follows it I do because its the law ...and the money goes to the town ..not my town but the town my town is under ...its just a money grabber ...maybe in the city its worth it because if your dog is licensed you might get it back depending where it was caught for another fee of coarse ...here if your dog gets caught out its better to have a tag telling where you live and a phone number ..thats what gives your dog a better chance of getting home ...but I live out in the country ....

 

[melissasparrots]

As an addendum I would like to comment on imprinting as was touched upon above, for those that may not understand the significance. Human imprinted birds of prey are neither suitable for falconry nor fit for release in the event they were illegally taken from the wild and kept as pets. When it comes to the "pet parrot" a hand raised/human bonded bird is the desire (it's what sells). But this is the source of many of their frustrations with captive life.

That bit about imprinting is just entirely incorrect. Many accipiters actually do better in captivity if imprinted and they do hunt cooperatively with humans and dogs remarkably well. Frankly, if I ever thought I might want a goshawk, I'd seriously consider imprinting one. Imprints are less stressed in captivity (I'm sure you'd love the copy and paste a bunch of stuff to the contrary), and actually die of aspergillous less often than non-imprinted counter parts. They are more likely to hunt freely as instinct and opportunity drives them than out of hunger management. And they do hunt very successfully. The immune system and survival rate indicates that imprinted birds handle stress better than their wild caught relatives and possibly even better than captive parent raised birds. Hybrid falcons used for falconry are often imprinted and need to be flown with two tracking devices so that if one transmitter falls off, the bird is more likely to be found and thus can't take a wild mate and incorporate non-native or impure genes into the wild gene pool. That doesn't sound much like a bird that can't survive in the wild to me. Also, the information you shared about owls a while ago is pretty sketchy. Most people I know say that imprinted owls are fairly cute and personable but wild caughts are difficult to train. Owls in general are difficult to train and often not used for hunting because they just don't work out well for it. However, others argue that they just need to be trained different. I keep trying to get around to reading A Nocturnal Mind. Maybe I'll get to it this summer. They do better when trained to fly from point A to point B for demonstrations but not with dynamic hunting situations involving multiple locations and prey that takes cover after the first flight. They are just a much different bird that other raptors.

Personally, I've lived with a wild caught cockatoo that was straight out of quarantine back in the 80s. The bird did fine. However, my hand-fed bird is quieter, less needy, less aggressive and better at keeping herself occupied. She also does a lot less repetitive behavior than the wild caught did. The wild caught suffered only from the general lack of knowledge and good vet care that was pervasive in the time. If the bird had been wild caught in the modern world, he would have done much better.

I disagree that imprinting is the source of frustrations in captivity. I think that data needs to be interpreted through a different lens. Hand-fed birds are not necessarily imprinted in the classical sense of the word. Frankly, even raptors will dual imprint if raised with clutchmates. Parrots from my observations do not imprint the same as galliformes and anseriformes. When raised with other parrots in view they probably do not qualify as a strict imprint. They might behave as a food imprint for a while, but possibly not a sexual imprint if they have access to a proper mate later in life. You might have trouble with this because possibly it hasn't been researched well enough to be associated with a definable term that you can copy and paste.

Because hand-fed birds are more comfortable in captivity, they are more likely to show a variety of behaviors than a wild caught bird. This can include self mutilation but it can also include playing with toys. A wild caught is more likely to sit stationary, blank eyed and while fully and beautifully feathered it may not enjoy its toys as well. It may not have as deep a dependency on humans, buts also less likely to be comfortable with physical release of frustration such as screaming, playing or even stereotypies etc. I've seen your copy and pastes on the subject and I simply don't agree with your interpretation of the data and I question the researchers interpretation as well in some cases. Sometimes it seems like they are on the right track if they stick to the data but they go sideways when they try to go a step further beyond the data in their interpretation. I also seriously think the physiological response to stress is being studied a bit too narrowly in some cases. This is probably necessary in some cases for research, but the world is dynamic and more than one response/outcome needs to be used to measure stress.

I'm busy this year, so I may not have time to post on this thread for weeks if ever. I will second the request to read more about your experiences with your birds.

 

[LaSelva]

Naturally imprinted, wild-caught birds are usually fairly suitable for falconry. Their main disadvantages are their well developed fear response (which makes accipiters particularly difficult to use), and their nest site imprinting which can make aviaries appear so alien that the bird is too stressed to come into full breeding condition. Their hunting ability is usually good, although sometimes they range too independently of the falconer to be of much practical use.

The opposite extreme is the raptor that has been openly hand reared by man on it’s own. It incessantly screams at it’s human “parent” for food, it treats humans as siblings and mantles over it’s food. It is aggressive on kills and may even fly at and attack the handler. Because falconry demands that the hawk comes to the falconer for food, and that the falconer must rob the hawk of it’s kill, the falconer acts as both parent and sibling and reinforces this jealous behavior, unless he works his handling system out very carefully. The natural process of independence from the parent does not take place and the raptor’s behavior is arrested at a juvenile dependent stage. Such birds, if continually taken hunting without a proper chance at prey, may vent their frustration on the escorting “parent” (the falconer) or other providers of quarry, such as the dogs. If it kills, it may leave the prey to drive off any competitive “siblings” (the falconer and his dogs).

There are several antidotes to these problems, all based on minimizing the falconer-parent-sibling image and maximizing independent game-catching attitudes. Changing the falconer often produces an immediate change, especially in acccipiters which seem to identify individuals more specifically than falcons do. But the new relationship that the hawk builds with the falconer is usually based on the old imprinted images of falconer-parent and before too long it is screaming again, this time at it’s new “parent.”

When human-imprinted raptors come into breeding condition the females then do refuse to hunt but beg to the falconer “husband,” while males make courtship overtures to the falconer “wife.” A wide variety of unnatural objects can stimulate them into copulation. These birds are well-adjusted to artificial environments and readily come into breeding condition in captivity. But although they are adjusted to humans, they show varying unnatural responses to their own species and may kill each other if placed together in pens.

 

[LaSelva]

As an FYI for some, these are the main stages to imprinting that overlap chronologically (they vary depending on species) are:

1) On parent. The blind chick will first respond to it's mothers calls. When it can see the parent it will direct food-begging behavior towards only the parent and eventually develop fear of anything that isn't the parent. Although "fear" in this case isn't quite what we think of it. As even at this helpless age young birds of prey, for example, will try to fight anything that enters their nest.

2) On siblings. Can be a source of comfort and warmth to the chick or competition - where the chick will begin to mantle over or defend it's food from them.

3) Development of fear response. As imprinted objects become familiar, new objects expereinced are considered unfamiliar and feared. One can use habituation on an older bird in this case but it must be continuously maintained because it wears off.

4) Imprinting on future sexual partner. Derived from the image of the parent, or perceived parent - primarily it's the food bringer that determines this.

5) Environmental imprinting. Imprinting on nest type, site and habitat - based on where they are being raised. NY's famous Red Tailed Hawk, "Pale Male," was chased away from his initial nest choice (a tree) by crows. He subsequently built on the ledge of a building. All of his offspring have since sought to build nests on buildings. This was a question I had asked the local dedicated Pale Male watchers in Central Park myself. There is a strong correlation between the surroundings/type of nest in which chick grows up and the type it will choose as an adult.

With regards to #4,

https://positively.com/contributors/the-sexually-frustrated-parrot-a-man-made-phenomenon/

“While not all problem behaviors in parrots are due to sexual frustration, the findings of this study support the notion that a great number of problems in captive parrots have a sexual basis. “

“When light cycles and temperature changes signal them to breed in the spring, they often become sexually frustrated and manifest behaviors such as feather destruction, self-mutilation, aggression, and purposeless screaming – behaviors that are generally not seen in wild parrots and that have no adaptive function for these wild birds. The fact that wild birds generally don’t display these behaviors and that administration of synthetic hormones that suppress natural sex hormone cycling in captive birds underlines that fact that the way parrots are housed and raised in captivity is completely unnatural for them; in fact, many of the problems avian veterinarians are challenged with treating in these birds are actually man-made. What is the solution? Should parrots be kept as pets at all? This is an ongoing debate for which there is no correct answer.”

 

[LaSelva]

An example of a wild owl that became affectionate with a human....

 

[LaSelva]

From Manual of Parrot Behavior edited by Andrew Luescher (a textbook for veterinary students):

"From a behavioral perspective, hand-rearing reliably produces tame, human-habituated birds that tend to talk more than do parent-reared birds.

However, hand-rearing may also be at the root of a number of behavior problems in companion parrots. Hand-rearing alters Orange-winged Amazons’ social preferences and sexual behavior and may lead to hand-reared parrots inappropriately directing sexual behavior (both courtship behavior and aggression) toward humans. Anecdotally, sexual aggression directed at humans is common in a number of parrot species, especially in male amazon parrots and male cockatoos. Similarly, parrot owners often report that their parrots regurgitate for them or attempt to masturbate against their owners’ hands or bodies. Although a strong social preference for humans may be endearing in a parrot chick, sexual aggression and inappropriate sexual behavior can be problematic in older birds. Hand-rearing may also be related to the “phobic” behavior that has been described in pet parrots. In the lay literature, phobic behavior is defined as a behavior pattern in which “a previously tame and affectionate parrot ‘suddenly’ seems afraid of almost everything and everyone” This sudden, apparently inexplicable, fearfulness usually appears in hand-reared birds around the age at which they would typically become independent of their parents in the wild. “Phobic” or anxious parrots often injure themselves trying to avoid aversive stimuli, often breaking blood feathers and injuring their keels in repeated falls (Clark 2001). Obviously, the sudden appearance of such extreme and apparently unexplainable fearful behavior in a previously fearless bird can be disconcerting and would certainly appear pathological. Hand-reared parrot chicks are endearing, oftentalkative, and fearless. However, this period of outgoing fearlessness is only temporary. By one year of age, hand-reared and parent-reared Orange-winged Amazons behave identically inresponse to a novel object, suggesting that the period in which hand-reared birds appear particularly well adapted to captivity may only be temporary. "

 

[aooratrix]

And how are your birds doing???

 

[LaSelva]

They're good, too much to tell really - life is a juggling act. Each is different so we cater to them uniquely and I could always use more free time to spend with them. Especially since my daughter was born when so much changed. They say it takes a village, well it's just me and my wife here in FL and we both work.

As far as parrots' physiological response to stress...

The "cost of the stress" | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

 

[melissasparrots]

An example of a wild owl that became affectionate with a human....

David, you are revealing yourself to be a research junkie without much practical hands on experience. Or maybe just enough to kind of be able to talk the talk, but not quite. The owl video has been widely discussed in a falconry group I'm on. Many of the people there are falconers that have also done rehab. That behavior is supposedly fairly common for rehab owls. Honest, I can't remember the specifics of it, but the general consensus was that that embrace was not what it seems. Most rehabbers also aren't real thrilled with those snowy owl videos making the rounds with the little girl kissing and hugging it. The consensus is that that owl is barely tolerating it and the parents need to step in and give the owl some peace.

The raptor imprint information you just regurgitated above is pretty standard pros and cons of accipiter falconry. Looks like whoever you consulted for your "expertise" was someone that preferred parent reared birds. There are MANY falconers that prefer imprint accipiters due to the tameness and comfort level of the bird and its health. There are also falconers that prefer parent reared due to the simplicity. Its a matter of choice and opinion with many people who have had a parent reared goshawk die of asper choosing an imprint for their next bird. If I wasn't worried about asper, I might be more interested in a parent reared gos. But, since I don't like it when birds up and die on me and I'd rather not mess around with prophylactic antifungals twice a year, I'm researching imprints. Also, I've seen wild caught red tails that scream like imprints and I've had a wild caught red tail fly across the woods to put a talon in my face. A free flying hawk that wants a piece of you is a little harder to avoid than a cockatoo on a rampage in the living room and not having an imprint is no guarantee of a peaceful relationship.

Like aooratrix, I'm still interested in how your birds are doing. Personally, I find that if I spend a lot of time online arguing with people, I'm taking time away from my birds.

 

[LaSelva]

That behavior is supposedly fairly common for rehab owls.

And my experience is in rehab! Considering I don't have home video of my time as an Audubon volunteer I had to find something that proves how affectionate these birds can be. I've seen first hand a Great Horned owl snuggle under the chin of my mentor while making what I'd describe as "affectionate baby-type" noises. This owl, which was originally wild, during season would turn and raise its rear (a mating posture) towards this woman, her primary caretaker. I guess she promoted this behavior and thought it was ok to do so because she even brought this bird, which was constructing a nest at the time, sticks thereby simulating a gift from a mate. This affection is something she never wanted to show to the public during some of the educational programs for which I helped train birds, for obvious reasons.

 

[LaSelva]

From:

That bit about imprinting is just entirely incorrect.

To:

Its a matter of choice and opinion.

You're backpedaling now. But thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Peppo]

Did anyone actually read all that? I would rather play ball with Paco...

 

[aooratrix]

Did anyone actually read all that? I would rather play ball with Paco...

I just want to read a post about his birds and their lives with him. When I see all the copying and pasting or linking, I just think "wow, no experience with his own birds that's germane to the topic at hand." I'm here to learn about products, toys, training, etc. that people use with their own birds that could enrich my birds' lives. I also like to share when my birds do something unusual, to me, or how I'm experiencing an issue to try to learn from others or, maybe, help someone else whose birds are similar to mine or displaying the same behavior.