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biting when perched on hand

Trueblue82

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hi guys, i just got a grey a few days ago, he is eating well and willing to come out of the cage.

he lets me stroke his head no problem, but if he does perch on my hand/arm he will bite my hand/ar by reaching down.
he has drawn blood.

what does this behaviour mean and how do i deter this?
 

TikiMyn

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Welcome to the avenue and Congratulations with your grey!
When does she do it? Does she sit there for a few minutes for example and then start to bite or when you transport her back to her cage for example? Could she be bored? What do you do after she bites? My birds sometimes start biting if I don’t give them something else to chew. They might also see something they don’t like and then bite.
 

Trueblue82

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after she bites i just endure it and tell her firmly no.

she just steps up and 2secs later BITE.

no problem with me stroking her head though.
 

sunnysmom

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If you recently got him, he may still be learning to trust you/ be comfortable with you. Can you have him perch on a stand or something for now and not on your arm?
 

JLcribber

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Trueblue82

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looks like i need to find one.

or build one myself.... hmmm
 

Shinobi

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hi guys, i just got a grey a few days ago, he is eating well and willing to come out of the cage.

he lets me stroke his head no problem, but if he does perch on my hand/arm he will bite my hand/ar by reaching down.
he has drawn blood.

what does this behaviour mean and how do i deter this?




Yes John the T-stick is the answer.
trueblue82 Some birds will gladly step up and then bite, could be learnt behaviour or the bird just doesn't like new people.
 

Monica

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If he bites after stepping up, then maybe you need to take a step back and not ask him to step up.

Alternatively, once he does step up, ask him to do something else that makes it difficult for him to bite you. This could be eating a treat or playing with a toy.



Essentially, avoid and redirect.


And, if he does bite, don't ignore it. Set him down! What happened before the bite? What happened during? And after? How can you avoid that situation in the future?
 

Shinobi

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BITING IS NOT A NATURAL CONFLICTS RESOLUTIONS OR COMMUNICATIONS IN BIRDS. Instead they are handled with body language and vocalizations. They convey their feelings beforehand or will fly off to avoid physical contact. If needed, the beak is protection against predators such as snakes and raptors or if it feels cornered and frighten then the need to bite will be from the natural instinct of self -preservation. But not against others in their own flock. In their natural environments, competition and/ or conflict between parrots rarely escalates to physical violence. Instead, they vocalize (scream) and/or use body language by strutting, posturing, and fluffing feathers to make themselves look bigger. Beaks are used for climbing, eating, playing (wrestling) and preening... not for biting another flock member.

It's not about assuming that Birds behaviour is a discomfort, good, bad or wrong and must be corrected. It's about teaching your bird acceptable behaviours within the flock, just has the bird’s parents would have done in the wild. The parents would have disciplined their young if they were displaying unacceptable behaviour. Biting hard is an unacceptable behaviour

I tolerate the bite, which can be really hard at times. Under NO circumstances should you yell while been bitten. Instead say No biting or naughty bird in a firm, displeased voice and give the bird a very dirty look. Show the bird your displeasure by giving it a REALLY DIRTY LOOK ("The Evil Eye"). Serious -- you have to look at it as if it were the lowest of the low, or pond scum, or something you might find stuck to the bottom of your shoe. Parrots are extremely empathetic creatures who watch our facial expressions closely. He will understand your displeasure if you give him a tremendously dirty look. The bird will understand that you are unhappy and will try very hard not to do it again. I don’t put my birds back in the cage has I feel this makes for resentment. Instead I put the bird back on its stand and scold it.

For the record, in the two and half years that we had Marlin, our Alexandrine Parakeet, I was bitten hard once. I put him on the stand and scolded him and after that he never bit anyone else. This happened when he was around 7 months old. Henry our male Eclectus did the same and I also put him on the bird stand and scolded him and he hasn’t bitten my wife or me since. But he still gives strangers a nip if they FORCE themselves onto him. I tell people to give him a sunflower seed and let him come to you.

But if you make a show out of being bitten, then the bird can find it quite entertaining and can be encouraged to bite. This is called learnt bad behaviour.
So the parrot will nip again, because the human inadvertently rewarded it for nipping, by yelling. Sooner or later, the experimental nips will actually cause damage to the human (emotionally as well as physically), and the human's response becomes yelling, something to the effect of "YOU BAD BIRD, YOUR MOMMY (or DADDY) LOVES YOU, HOW COULD YOU BITE YOUR MOMMY (or DADDY)??!??!! The bird doesn't understand what's happening here, of course..... It thinks this is a wonderful new game. You know, bite a finger and your person makes lots of LOUD and WONDERFUL noises.... Bite hard enough and your person will also jump around... Bonus points…… This becomes learnt bad behaviour and they will actively hunt out skin to play this wonderful game of entertainment.

Do not leave the room. The bird may have bitten you to go away. So you leaving the room is what the bird wants. Therefore, you are teaching the bird that by biting, you will leave. This is learnt bad behaviour.

You can use a Toy/treat as a distraction, But it's just that 'a distraction'. It's not really teaching the bird acceptable behaviours. What you're really teaching the bird, is that by biting, it gets a toy/treat. Again, this is learnt bad behaviour.

I was told many years ago not to use the earthquake method. (Shake your hand when the bird goes to bite). When your bird is on your hand don't shake your hands to unbalance the bird has this will cause trust issues between your hand and the bird. This person told me the idea is to make your hands a safe and trusted place for your birds and if you shake your hand to unbalance the bird then the bird will come to see your hand as unsafe and will learn to distrust your hands. If your bird views your hand has unsafe and distrusts your hand, it will more likely bite the hand, then fly away. The use of gloves can also cause problems further down the line. It would probably be better to find out what is triggering the bite and there are many different types of triggers. Watch the eyes. If they pin, pull your hand away.

Contrary to human beliefs, parrots think yelling is a fantastic and fun response and it will actually reinforce a learnt bad behaviour. Parrots really enjoy it when humans yell at them. Parrots often scream simply for the fun of it so it is a fallacy to think they perceive that yelling is a reprimand. On the contrary, they generally interpret yelling as positive feed-back. This is what called The Drama Reward.

Just keep in mind that patience is key. Never mistreatment a bird who bites. Birds remember mistreatment, and they hold grudges. Any interaction you have with your bird should be bonding and trust-building. Parrots and other animals learn best when wanted behaviour is rewarded right as it occurs and BAD behaviour is not. (It’s that simple).

Birds use their beaks like a third hand and they will use this "third hand to help them onto your hand when you are start the training of step up. This is because the bird is unsure how stable your hand is so they test your hands stability with their third hand before stepping up.

This scenario happens when an inexperienced owner is not clear in their signals to the parrot. For example, when offering a hand for the bird to step up, an inexperienced owner often isn't quite sure of him/herself... so their hand motion is uncertain. The bird may wish very much to climb on, but is unsure of the stability of the hand will reaches with its beak (The beak functions as a third hand) to steady the human hand. The human, afraid of that beak, pulls their hand away. Now the bird is confused!

Now each time the human's hand is offered, and the bird attempts to grab the hand with its beak to hold it steady so it can climb on. The human jerks their hand away. The bird has no idea what has happened but if the scene is repeated (as it usually is), the bird will learn that it's beak will make the hand go away. The bird doesn't really want the hand to go away, but it is fun to control one's human's hand so the learnt behaviour will happen again and a-gain. Once again, the parrot has no idea it has done anything wrong.

If you can't handle the bird with bare hands at this time, use a T perch to move the bird around.

I would try target training, but the bird must first be clicker trained, this means that the birds understands that a click equals reward, the reward can be praise or a food item

Then you need to decide what to use for the target, I use a chop stick and it can’t be a hand-held perch that the birds step up onto. The chop stick must only be used for training sessions and not for play outside the training sessions, otherwise they lose their meaning.

Use T-stand to confine the bird to the area which helps it to concentrate on the chop stick. Start by holding the chop stick near the bird and Click and reward for any movement toward the chop stick. Then withhold the reward until the bird touches the chop stick, Click and reward.

Teach him to touch it with a gentle grip of the beak as birds have a tendency to open their beak to touch it. If you have a bird that is very aggressive and wants to grab the chop stick out of your hand, then you will need to hold onto the chop stick and not let him pull it out of your hand.

The first time he does a gentle grab Click and reward with extra treats and praise. This is an “recognition moment ". He should soon get the idea of the gentle grip. Once he understands that, only Click and reward for gentle grip touches.

Once the bird is reliably touching the chop stick from the perch, by having him move up, down, right and left, we can then move the bird to the table top training area. If the bird seems nervous at first, go ahead and move the chop stick close to him to begin with. Then start moving it back a little at a time, and Click and reward for each gentle grip touch. Soon you should have him following the chop stick anywhere on the training area. This usually only takes two or three short sessions to train, but don't be discouraged if it takes longer.

The benefits of teaching a bird to target with a gentle grip, is that grabbing something with his beak is natural for him.

If your bird is cage bound, then start target training in the cage. This may have to take more time, but no need to rush things. Empty the food bowl and then when you Click and reward, you simply drop the treats into the food bowl. When you are finished with your training session. refill the food bowl.

Once a cage bound or aggressive bird has learned to target, you can start teaching him to step up using the target. Just don't use your arm first to step up on if there is any chance of being bitten. In training, we ALWAYS aim to avoid bites. Use a hand-held T- perch for the bird to step up on. You can either hold the clicker on the target stick and the perch with the other hand or use a mouth click. Hold the target where he will have to step onto the perch to reach the target. Take your time and don't worry if you must back up. We don't want to frighten the bird. When the bird becomes better at stepping up, you can then teach behaviours away from the cage.

Targeting is just one of the tools I use in training. The important things to keep in mind about this behaviour are:

The basic idea of targeting is to have the bird follow an object to touch it.

Once he has the idea of the gentle grip only reward him for that.

Always Click and reward for every gentle grip of the target.

Use “recognition moment " to help keep up his interest.

Try and end sessions on a positive note.

Have fun, keep training simple and never train if you are in a bad mood.

Once a bird has learned a behaviour, he won't forget it.

Happy training.
 
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finchly

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^^ This is wonderful. @Shinobi very well said.

I am now the proud (not) owner of a bird that bites down as hard as he can and doesn’t let go: “bite hard enough and the owner screams and jumps around...bonus points”..... Yeah that would be me.
 

Trueblue82

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abit of update,

my bird readily and eagerly climbs out of the cage on his own to the play gym above his cage.

he lowers his head to let me scratch him most of the times.

sometimes he will chirp back when i call him, not always.


if he is spooked by some other noise in the house he will fly off the gym randomly into the curtains and hang there, afraid and if i move my hand close to try get him to step up, he will bite, kind of hard.
i can only wait for him to fly off again hopefully to the floor, then when i put my hand close, he will step up but he does it warily and will flap his wings continuously when on my hand and then fly back to the perch(play gym) once i get close enough to it.

he doesn't step up and if i move my hand close enough for him to perch, he will lift one of his feet up to try and grab and then bite. It is really a bite and not a steadying beak or something.

he is age 6 months+.
 

Just-passn-thru

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^^ This is wonderful. @Shinobi very well said.

I am now the proud (not) owner of a bird that bites down as hard as he can and doesn’t let go: “bite hard enough and the owner screams and jumps around...bonus points”..... Yeah that would be me.

Well then @finchly you must heed this advice otherwise your human /Avian bond will be forever tarnished :imok:
 

Just-passn-thru

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abit of update,

my bird readily and eagerly climbs out of the cage on his own to the play gym above his cage.

he lowers his head to let me scratch him most of the times.

sometimes he will chirp back when i call him, not always.


if he is spooked by some other noise in the house he will fly off the gym randomly into the curtains and hang there, afraid and if i move my hand close to try get him to step up, he will bite, kind of hard.
i can only wait for him to fly off again hopefully to the floor, then when i put my hand close, he will step up but he does it warily and will flap his wings continuously when on my hand and then fly back to the perch(play gym) once i get close enough to it.

he doesn't step up and if i move my hand close enough for him to perch, he will lift one of his feet up to try and grab and then bite. It is really a bite and not a steadying beak or something.

he is age 6 months+.
Some birds are afraid of hands, next time you handle instead of approaching the bird with your hand ,try using your forearm with your fingers in a tucked in fist, in a calm voice say step-up , then for step-down ,calmly and slowly lower your arm down and onto the surface where you want him to stand, and say step-down.
( some birds step down backing off instead of stepping forward).
This is a great exercise in your bird feeling safe , hold your forearm horizontally close to your birds chest so he can step up easily, then give him praise.
It's late my birds are sleeping ,tomorrow I will do a video with my birds of what I'm trying to convey. Hold your arm like this for step-up...
20180421_000505.jpg
Here's an example of using my forearm I will do a more detailed video tomorrow of step-up step-down


 
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Trueblue82

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thanks for your advice, any idea why he lets me use my hands to scratch him but is scared of my hands for perching?

he is also scared of all perches that i hold.
 

Just-passn-thru

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thanks for your advice, any idea why he lets me use my hands to scratch him but is scared of my hands for perching?

he is also scared of all perches that i hold.
Give it a try with your forearm see if he feels more comfortable that way.
He may feel unstable on your hand.
He's skittish and not used to things reaching or approaching him.

Continue to work with him some birds take longer to be relaxed and comfortable being handled.
Bentley my bird is somewhat shy and skittish, the one perched on my shoulder in the video. Isabelle the one on my arm is outgoing and enjoys being in the center of things in the family. I don't force Bently to behave like Isabelle ,I allow him to be who he is.

Keep your sessions short and simple don't place to many demands on him.
Let him observe and be a part of the family room activities, situate his cage in a quiet corner and watch the coming and goings of your family life.
He will in time overcome his apprehension at his own pace.
 
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Shinobi

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Some birds are afraid of hands, next time you handle instead of approaching the bird with your hand ,try using your forearm with your fingers in a tucked in fist, in a calm voice say step-up , then for step-down ,calmly and slowly lower your arm down and onto the surface where you want him to stand, and say step-down.
( some birds step down backing off instead of stepping forward).
This is a great exercise in your bird feeling safe , hold your forearm horizontally close to your birds chest so he can step up easily, then give him praise.
It's late my birds are sleeping ,tomorrow I will do a video with my birds of what I'm trying to convey. Hold your arm like this for step-up...
View attachment 274510
Here's an example of using my forearm I will do a more detailed video tomorrow of step-up step-down



The arm is just giving the bird more to bite
 

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Shinobi

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hi guys, i just got a grey a few days ago, he is eating well and willing to come out of the cage.

he lets me stroke his head no problem, but if he does perch on my hand/arm he will bite my hand/ar by reaching down.
he has drawn blood.

what does this behaviour mean and how do i deter this?


The bird is biting your hand / arm. Do not offer your arm to the bird. I suggest you research target training & pressure bite training. Also I would be wary of homemade and amateur videos.
 
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