Beak cues

[Donna turner]

I have never tried to potty train cheeky but I have noticed she doesn't go in some places unless we are there too long. For instance when we're looking at the ipad on the counter she usually doesn't go there but as soon as we go back to play station she runs up the ladder and poops. I have nothing to do with this behavior

 

[CrazyBirdChick]

I think I inadvertently trained Blu to poop on my knee. The first couple of times he did it, I couldn't resist how cute he looked all big and poofy as he squatted and I said -did you poop on me?"

And now every time he sits on me he poops. He doesn't even try to aim it away from his own feet or body either. He's weird in that regard.

But he also poops everywhere else so I wouldn't consider him potty trained. Just that he likes pooping on me every chance he gets

 

[Tyrion]

Like anything avian related I really dont think there have been any vet studies on if it is dangerous to house train your parrots ...there has been allot of discussions on it on this forum as there has been on others but vet related studies I really doubt it ...maybe on how their bowels work directly but on house training just doing a quick google search I couldnt find any ...working with parrots for the last 30 yrs I wouldnt do it like many others here I feel their system isnt made for house training ...they are made for a quick release like John pointed out ...there are many problems like prolapsing and infection that can be caused by a parrot being made to hold their stool/urine ...and I just dont think you are going to find the vet associated studies you are looking for to either back up a yes or no on the subject

 

[Atomiklan]

there are many problems like prolapsing and infection that can be caused by a parrot being made to hold their stool/urine

The problem I have with all of this is several people keep saying this, yet they are not able to cite statistics on even individual vet visits in which the vet specifically determines, A was caused by B. This is all still rumor until someone can produce data from a vet.

 

[Atomiklan]

Update, found this:
Info cited from "Avian Medicine and Surgery: Self Assessment Review" pg. 56 --
Case 51...asks about characteristic historical findings of Cockatoos with cloacal prolapse. One of the characteristics may be the "tendency to hold the feces for a prolonged period of time (which may have been stimulated further by potty training by the owner.)"

I almost missed this edit. Thank you @iamwhoiam for posting this. Not quite a journal, but it is at least a start of some real information instead of just hearsay. I will see if I can find a copy to do some digging. I am open to any other information anyone can produce please.

 

[Tiel Feathers]

There just isn't that much research done on avian care, but just because there is no concrete evidence on something being harmful doesn't mean it's okay. I would rather err on the side of caution and listen to bird owners and vets who have seen firsthand the problems potty training can create.

 

[Tyrion]

The problem I have with all of this is several people keep saying this, yet they are not able to cite statistics on even individual vet visits in which the vet specifically determines, A was caused by B. This is all still rumor until someone can produce data from a vet.

Most everything you read on causes of rectal prolapses includes holding in stool to long all you have to do is google it ...house training will involve at some point in your bird holding their stool for a period of time which is increasing the possibility of causing a rectal prolapse

 

[Laurie]

I still would like to see peer reviewed studies from reputable veterinarians first.

Please go find them and share them with us so we can all benefit. I am sure there are many more people reading this and wanting to know then those who are commenting.

I would also like to add that vets are not necessarily the experts on all things bird. Knowledge abounds in many areas and much of it resides in the minds and experiences of those who live with birds everyday. How do you know you are not talking to a biologist or a vet or a vet tech or a breeder who has watched and researched the entire life cycle of a particular species? Better to ask and listen then the insist that a knowledgeable person, perhaps even one with credentials from academia, shouldn't be taken seriously because his comments had not been peer reviewed.

I totally appreciate the need to vet the info you receive but anecdotal evidence interpreted by and experienced bird keeper, backed up by years of first hand experience and stories gathered from fellow bird keepers over years is a very valuable thing. I've seen people leave groups or stop giving advice to people all together because they are insulted or ignored. It's a shame really.

I've been there. It's not pretty.

Nobody is policing what you choose to do but the advice you have been given is solid. After 10, 20, 30 or 40 years, a person may not remember where they heard or read something but if they have a reputation for providing accurate advice, being well read, and experienced and a good steward or their birds, then what they say should at least be cause for personal research on the part of the one with the question.

I'm not sure why this thread has me feeling like I need to take a side. We should all be on the same side. Our bird's side.

 

[JLcribber]

All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

 

[Atomiklan]

Still waiting on a few other doctors to reply back. Here is a direct quote from Dr. Greg Burkett Diplomate ABVP Avian (Dr. Greg Burkett | Durham Bird Vet | Avian Veterinary Services):

"I am assuming the chatter is about potty training a bird can cause prolapse or can cause them to hold it indefinitely until you tell them to go. Utter nonsense on both counts. That is not how prolapse works. Prolapse is generally from straining and not from holding in. It does not make sense to suggest that potty training causes prolapse. Another thing owners say are that birds will hold poop indefinitely if they are potty trained. That is not how deffication works. They can’t hold it indefinitely. Physiology will not allow that to happen. There is voluntary action for evacuating the cloaca, but there is also involuntary, like when the cloaca is filled, or when it is painful. The stretch receptors in the cloacal wall automatically cause contraction when they are activated. Challenging question for nonbelievers: How long can you go without passing droppings, indefinitely?”. There are no published studies that I am aware of to prove or disprove any of the relationships between potty training, prolapse, and not evacuating the cloaca indefinitely . That is because there is not a need to do such a study. They would be testing for something that is known by either common sense and / or scientific knowledge of the physiological processes, which both contribute to the evidence that these things will not happen."

Again, I am still waiting on replies from additional avian specialists. Sounds like official studies will indeed be difficult to find. Will have to rely more on unstructured clinical data. So far, I am still sticking to my original conclusion.

To try to bring the conversation back to the original question. I talked with Lada's parront the other day and remembered to ask her what she thought of the behavior. She immediately knew what I was going to tell her and proceeded to tell me that it was as I initially concluded. Lada had to poop... lol

 

[iamwhoiam]

That's interesting info from Dr. Burkett. I read a case study about an African Grey that had a prolapsed cloaca and the owners had been potty training it. The veterinarian's recommendation was to cease with the potty training. Vet felt that this was one of the contributing factors for the prolapse.

 

[Tyrion]

I guess my first question to Dr Burkett is if he ownes any birds and for how long if he does ..and if he has ever house trained his parrots ... Im glad you are seeking vets advice but not all vets know everything they are not the be all and end all to bird husbandry ...to really know the answer to your questions studies would have to be done on helpless birds which I feel would be a terrible thing to do to them .Even if you get a few vets to agree with you doesnt mean its the right way to go ;(

 

[Laurie]

I guess my first question to Dr Burkett is if he ownes any birds and for how long if he does ..and if he has ever house trained his parrots ... Im glad you are seeking vets advice but not all vets know everything they are not the be all and end all to bird husbandry ...to really know the answer to your questions studies would have to be done on helpless birds which I feel would be a terrible thing to do to them .Even if you get a few vets to agree with you doesnt mean its the right way to go ;(

I can speak to this one, I personally know have spoken with Dr. Burkett on several occasions. He is a well respected Board Certified Avian Vet who owns birds and runs an all avian practice. I appreciate what he stated and the explanation he offered.

I would add that I personally know that female egg laying birds will hold it for 24 hours coming out to poop only once and then going back to the nest. This seems normal.

Since prolapse happens from straining, is there a possibility of a bird trying to go on command when he doesn't need to having a prolapse? I don't know.

I do know of an experience with a friend who was fostering a bird who wouldn't poop in his cage, for days. They were concerned about this and felt the need to return home a few times a day to let the bird out to go poop. I do not know if this was recommended by a vet or just a personal choice.

Anyways, it doesn't seem to be a simple issue. I like to try and establish a routine of where to potty. Ignore any times that they go elsewhere and praise when they go in the appointed spot. I feel like this is a good approach because it give me a little more cleanliness and convenience and does not seem to impact the birds behavior as far as holding it in or straining to go when he doesn't need to. I find it a balanced approach that has worked for me. It gives you most of the upside and non of the downside. I don't use any reward other than praise because I do not want my bird offering up the behavior when he is not inclined just to earn a treat.

@Atomiklan now that you have recognized the body language from Lada that she needs to go potty you can "capture" the behavior and put it on cue. If you're not sure what that means I'll send you on a google search adventure. Check out capturing behavior, shaping and positive reinforcement training. Keep it low key and use secondary reinforcers only (another google search adventure for you).

 

[BirdGuy21]

I can't speak to any peer reviewed studies that meet the requirements that you are suggesting. However I am not sure that those studies actually exist, but if they do I would like to read them myself. I think the lack of actual data and study on anything related to avian care though suggests that you wont find any concrete data to support or negate your point of view. I agree though with @JLcribber, birds as prey animals are not meant to hold back their waste and this can cause problems further down the road. Also, I'm not saying that a bird could hold it indefinitely, but I am sure holding it in for a prolonged period of time is uncomfortable and could cause issues down the road. Hence why every grocery and convenience store sells products to alleviate constipation in humans.

From personal experience, my TAG Harley will not go in his cage. I don't know if this was taught or a peculiarity unique to him, but I do know that if I don't get him out of his cage at the usual times he becomes very distressed and will begin to chew and pick his feathers. In my opinion having birds means one has to either accept that they will have some stains on their shirts or learn to read your birds body language and move them to a playstand or other appropriate spot every few minutes for them to relieve themselves. I wear old undershirts when I'm home, that way when the birds go its not a big deal if it stains. The shirts get washed and once they are too bad in the trash they go.

As for what the beak rubbing behavior could mean- my Alex does something similar when she is being affectionate.

 

[Atomiklan]

to really know the answer to your questions studies would have to be done on helpless birds which I feel would be a terrible thing to do to them

I don't believe anyone would be cruel enough to preform that type of a study Tyrion. This would be more of a transversal study of currently available data which is common in traditional health care, but maybe not tracked the same or at all by veterinarians.

 

[Atomiklan]

Check out capturing behavior

Cool I will work on that. Looks fun.

 

[Atomiklan]

Received a reply from another avian SME. Dr. Dan Johnson ABVP The Vets

Still no data provided other than the vets past clinical experience. Will continue to post replies and any data they provide from other vets as they become available.

"When a bird holds feces for longer than “necessary”, sometimes a Clostridial infection occurs. I agree that training a bird to poop over a trash can is probably not going to be unhealthy for the vast majority of birds. But I suppose a case can be made that making a bird hold feces for hours at a time rather than minutes at a time could cause dilation of the cloaca, fecal retention, and secondary bacterial (Clostridium especially) overgrowth. This is NOT a major health concern issue in the pet bird world as far as I have seen."

 

[BirdGuy21]

I guess another way I could say this is I feel that teaching a bird to hold in it's waste is just unnatural. We already subject them to an unnatural situation by living in captivity, why add another stressor.

 

[tka]

Okay, I'm running a literature search on my university's peer-reviewed journals. I'm restricting it to peer-reviewed material but otherwise throwing it open to anything with "parrot", "parrots", "psittacine" or "psittacines" in the title. It will take me a while to manually go through the results, but so far it's mainly very specialist stuff on physiology and studies of (endangered) wild populations. There is relatively little on pet behaviour modifications.

 

[JLcribber]

The real problem arises when a bird strains to poop. Once a bird is poop command trained it will always try and poop even if it doesn’t have to. Now you have a dangerous situation because if the bird keeps doing it, eventually it will push that Cloaca out. Seen it many times.