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Urgent Baytril+Doxycycline+Meloxicam together okay? ACV for yeast infection?

birdlovekk

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The only concern I have here, is the sugar,,sugar loves yeast, and yeast loves sugar...so, In my educated opinion, no sugar! They cant, or shouldn't be tasting the oral meds if you putting it correctly behind the tongue and glottis into the throat..
As for the blocked nares,,will she let you gently clean them with a Q-tip?
I completely forgot to say, Pineapple’s nose is blocked on the right side only. It was always that way, even when it was only discharge and no blockage. Biscuit shows no signs of discharge or blockage at all. The vet said she could carry the infection without showing signs, and I read that most budgies have amounts of the chlamydia bacteria but also build immunity to it.

Pineapple won’t “let” me wipe her but I grab her twice a day for meds and while I’m at it I wipe her nostril with a moistened q-tip. It’s blocked inside, though, so wiping doesn’t help anymore. Is it considered an improvement that it’s blocked inside instead of the surface?

I medicate her with a syringe. Am I supposed to push it back that far? I’ve been just dropping it on her tongue! I watched some YouTube videos and that was how people were doing it. The vet was unsure about showing me. He prefers the crop needle, which he demonstrated. I’m terrified I’ll poke out her throat if I try the crop needle myself, though. If I still use the syringe and try to push it back farther might that help her feel better?

Yeah I’m worried about the sugar. Argh.
 

Milo

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This is quite a lot to go through... I'm sure I've missed something so bear with me.

A lot of this depends on what's going on and it sounds like you're not able to get the necessary diagnostics done. Throwing antibiotics like doxy and baytril at a bird is a lot like throwing a handful of rocks up in the air and hoping one hits the target. At this point I would ask specifically what your vet what you're treating for and pick one or the other, not both. They're pretty big gun antibiotics. If I had to pick one right now it would be the doxycycline because it sounds like she's dealing with a respiratory issue and I believe the more common suspects are usually susceptible.

I would agree that mixing it with sugar water doesn't make any sense if you're trying to get rid of a yeast infection. There are a good deal of flavorings out there, and you could even try mixing it with a small amount of a soft food that she likes to see if she'll eat it that way. If not, dripping it slowly onto her tongue is fine to do as long as you see her swallowing the meds and she's not just shaking her head and flinging it out after you set her down. DO NOT USE A CROP NEEDLE (gavage tube) AT HOME. This is highly dangerous for your bird if you're uncomfortable and haven't been properly trained. You could easily kill your bird.

I don't think the nebulizer is a bad idea, a lot of birds don't find it stressful at all. An alternative would be to put them in the bathroom and run a hot shower until it gets really steamy in there, the moisture and heat from the steam can help break up the boogers you're seeing in her nose.

Birds do have a normal structure in their nose called the operculum, and if you're not sure what you're looking at sometimes it can look like the operculum is a piece of crud stuck in there, make sure that's not what you're trying to pick out!
 

Hankmacaw

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I know you love your birds and feel terrible when you upset them, but right now their health is involved and some of the things you need to do will upset them. Think of them as children who throw fits about going to the Dr. and taking medications - you would make them do it even if they threw a fit, so your birds need to also.
 

iamwhoiam

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You can go to this website and do a search for vets: Association of Avian Veterinarians
It's a reference tool because vets can join but that doesn't mean they are avian vets or how knowledgeable they are when it comes to treating birds.
However might be worth doing the search.
Vets do use flavorings in medications. I remember one vet asking me which flavor I wanted. Don't remember the choices. :)
A culture would really be helpful and I hope that you can find a vet who has experience with birds and will do the culture. You do not need want to push the syringe far back. Just insert on the left side of beak, angle syringe and aim towards the back right. I just put part of the tip in when I medicate. You can do a few drops at a time.
 

birdlovekk

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UPDATE:

Yesterday, Pineapple was quite lethargic, sleeping all day and eating very little. She's dropped to 38g, from 43g since a week ago.

After some specific asking around, I finally found a vet who does cultures. She has owned birds for 11 years, including some budgies, and has ten birds now, though no budgies currently. (She was recommended through the pet store where I got my birds.) I took Pineapple and Biscuit in to see her last night. The vet took saliva swabs from both birds and said that neither has a yeast infection. She also examined their poop and found nothing wrong. From only looking and listening, she thinks it's unlikely Pineapple has chlamydia. However, she has ordered an x-ray, blood test, and she'll cut and clean out the swollen area and do a culture on it. I'm taking Pineapple back in tomorrow morning for the tests, and the results will take about 5 days to get back.

In the meantime, she says Pineapple should be taking something. She prescribed a combo of Ciprosloxacin + Terbinafine.

I've read that Ciprosloxacin is another antibiotic similar to Baytril. Terbinafine is an anti-fungal, I think? Is this meant as a preventative? I've heard that an anti-fungal is often co-prescribed with an antibiotic. (I'll ask the vet tomorrow when I see her for the tests.)

* Does anyone have opinions and/or experience about side effects or other things for these drugs together: Ciprosloxacin + Terbinafine?

* Is it advisable to start this antibiotic, knowing that we might stop it in five days? Is it safer even to continue with the Doxycycline instead, even though Pineapple was reacting terribly to it?

-----

Note: The last vet diagnosed Biscuit's yeast infection from a crop swab. I don't know if that is more accurate than the saliva swab this new vet used? In any case, Biscuit has been her normal trouble-making self for the last two days running, so I am no longer too worried about her. I'll just keep her warm and as stress-free as possible.

Note: What with the new medicine coming in and the stress of the vet visit, I didn't feed Pineapple her evening dose of Doxycycline. As a result, she ate like a pig all night and regained quite a lot of energy. The same this morning. I am really reluctant to give her this new medicine (Ciprosloxacin + Terbinafine) until/unless I know it is actually what she specifically needs -- especially remembering that she was full of energy and eating normally before the Doxycycline. I would prefer to leave her unmedicated until the test results come back. Maybe she can eat more and gain some extra weight before the next round of medication...
 

birdlovekk

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This is quite a lot to go through... I'm sure I've missed something so bear with me.

A lot of this depends on what's going on and it sounds like you're not able to get the necessary diagnostics done. Throwing antibiotics like doxy and baytril at a bird is a lot like throwing a handful of rocks up in the air and hoping one hits the target. At this point I would ask specifically what your vet what you're treating for and pick one or the other, not both. They're pretty big gun antibiotics. If I had to pick one right now it would be the doxycycline because it sounds like she's dealing with a respiratory issue and I believe the more common suspects are usually susceptible.

I would agree that mixing it with sugar water doesn't make any sense if you're trying to get rid of a yeast infection. There are a good deal of flavorings out there, and you could even try mixing it with a small amount of a soft food that she likes to see if she'll eat it that way. If not, dripping it slowly onto her tongue is fine to do as long as you see her swallowing the meds and she's not just shaking her head and flinging it out after you set her down. DO NOT USE A CROP NEEDLE (gavage tube) AT HOME. This is highly dangerous for your bird if you're uncomfortable and haven't been properly trained. You could easily kill your bird.

I don't think the nebulizer is a bad idea, a lot of birds don't find it stressful at all. An alternative would be to put them in the bathroom and run a hot shower until it gets really steamy in there, the moisture and heat from the steam can help break up the boogers you're seeing in her nose.

Birds do have a normal structure in their nose called the operculum, and if you're not sure what you're looking at sometimes it can look like the operculum is a piece of crud stuck in there, make sure that's not what you're trying to pick out!
Thanks for the detailed advice, Milo!

Wow, I'm glad I didn't try the crop needle. I was getting desperate yesterday and ready to try it, anything to make the medicine go down easier so she's not so miserable and losing her appetite.

I tried steam yesterday, and I think it helped. After an hour, she started making some wet sneezing noises, and later I noticed that the top part of the blockage on her nostril was gone! I'll keep on with this and hope it helps. If necessary, I suppose I'll try to get ahold of a nebulizer. I don't know how she'd react. Over the last three weeks, she's become very skeptical of small spaces and strange liquids...

Re: operculum
I learned a new word! The vet last night did say that she didn't see any blockage. The inside of her (formerly?) clogged nostril seems to have a black mass to me. Her unblocked nostril and my other bird's nostrils are kind of pinkish inside, not black. The vet said that perhaps because the swollen bit is pressing on her nose, it's caused it to expose parts of the inside that I don't normally see. Weird. Have you ever heard of that? Oh, and I'm not picking at her nostril, thanks for the warning. I do wipe it with a wet q-tip once or twice a day if I see that it's clogged.

Do you have opinions about changing to Ciprosloxacin? She's had the Doxycycline now for 14 days. Is it safe to stop one and start another immediately? What if we stop the Cipro after five days; is it safe to even start it then? Is the Cipro less likely to cause negative reactions like she's been having (vomiting, loss of appetite)?

I'm reading about the newly prescribed drugs online. It would be great if anyone has direct experience, though. Thank you!
 

birdlovekk

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You can go to this website and do a search for vets: Association of Avian Veterinarians
It's a reference tool because vets can join but that doesn't mean they are avian vets or how knowledgeable they are when it comes to treating birds.
However might be worth doing the search.
Vets do use flavorings in medications. I remember one vet asking me which flavor I wanted. Don't remember the choices. :)
A culture would really be helpful and I hope that you can find a vet who has experience with birds and will do the culture. You do not need want to push the syringe far back. Just insert on the left side of beak, angle syringe and aim towards the back right. I just put part of the tip in when I medicate. You can do a few drops at a time.
Thank you, iamwhoiam!

I just tried the search and found two, one unfortunately on the other side of the country. The other seems to be an animal rescue vet, though with experience with parrots listed. I'll keep the website handy. Maybe more will join, and it will be useful in the future.

I completely forgot to ask my new vet last night if she flavors the medicine. I was squeezed in as the last patient and was there until past the usual closing time, and although she was quite patient, I was a bit rushed b/c I was trying not to keep her too late. The medicine doesn't smell sweet, though. I'll ask her tomorrow.

I'm so glad this new vet will be doing diagnostic tests. Thanks for the well wishes, maybe they helped!

Hm, I've been feeding my bird the opposite way! I'm right-handed, so I hold her in my left hand and then I put the syringe in on the right side of her beak. I'll try the other way next time. It's always a fight, though, because she's gotten very good at clamping her mouth closed and dodging. *sigh
 

finchly

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Yay! A good vet! Since you found a vet who seems to know what she’s doing, I would do as she recommended.

The Cipro and Terbinafine — I haven’t heard of Terbinafine but I have heard of a yeast med being used along side an antibiotic which I presume is a preventive.

Just my :2cents:.
 

Lady Jane

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We appreciate updates. I do know when a human has been on antibiotics that cultures will not show what the bacteria is. It could be the same way for birds but not sure. I am so sorry you and little feathered one have to go though all this. Praying for healing.
 

birdlovekk

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Yay! A good vet! Since you found a vet who seems to know what she’s doing, I would do as she recommended.

The Cipro and Terbinafine — I haven’t heard of Terbinafine but I have heard of a yeast med being used along side an antibiotic which I presume is a preventive.

Just my :2cents:.
Yes, I’m really hoping this one works out. At least, she’ll have more empathy, being a long time bird owner herself. :)

The reason I hesitate about the meds is because this culture is over-medicated (and antibiotics are especially over-used and sold OTC). People often don’t feel like the doctor’s doing anything if they don’t walk away with a fistful of drugs, and the doctors accomodate that mentality and now it’s just standard reason. I went to the clinic with a fever and what turned out to be a bad cold last time. Left with acetaminophen, cough syrup, pain meds, and something whose usage I forget but which is used primarily for cancer patients. (I only had a cold. I wasn’t even coughing.) I took just the acetaminophen and got better.

So I don’t want to accidentally be throwing unnecessary drugs at my bird when she is weak and I don’t know the possible unintended consequences. Argh, but of course I don’t want to disrespect the vet or ignore actually good advice. I wish my baby could tell me what she is feeling so I have a better idea how she really is. Pineapple in particular is even more uncommunicative than my other bird is, so it’s so hard to tell. :(

Thanks for sharing this emotional roller coaster! It’s so good not to feel completely alone. All my family is out of the country right now and I’m just going crazy.
 

birdlovekk

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We appreciate updates. I do know when a human has been on antibiotics that cultures will not show what the bacteria is. It could be the same way for birds but not sure. I am so sorry you and little feathered one have to go though all this. Praying for healing.
That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought of that. Hope the culture comes out all right. She’s already been on two weeks of antibiotics.

Thank you so much for the prayers!
 

birdlovekk

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Oops, the first drug name is CiproFloxacin. Sounded like ‘s’ over the phone.

So it’s Ciprofloxacin + Terbinafine.


Btw, I know I keep saying I don’t want to give Pineapple the new medicine and I’m sure I’ll subconsciously be biased toward opinions confirming that, but I do actually want accurate information. Whatever thoughts you have, please share without fearing hurting my feelings or whatever. Thank you all so much! :)
 

Hankmacaw

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Ciprofloxicin = Baytril and it is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is effective against many BACTERIA (not fungus)and it penetrates well. A couple of things you need to watch for is that your bird doesn't start throwing it up. It is known to make some birds nauseous and shouldn't be given long term (more than two to three weeks) because it may cause ulcers in the crop.

Terbinifine - is an antifungal (not bacteria) and is one of the antifungals that do the least damage to a bird's liver. It is good that the vet is giving an antifungal too - because your bird has never had tests to find out if the infection is bacterial or fungal or both - yes they can have both at the same time.

You should give them both at the same time - because they may have both a bacterial and a fungal infection - again you don't know.

 

birdlovekk

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Ciprofloxicin = Baytril and it is a broad spectrum antibiotic that is effective against many BACTERIA (not fungus)and it penetrates well. A couple of things you need to watch for is that your bird doesn't start throwing it up. It is known to make some birds nauseous and shouldn't be given long term (more than two to three weeks) because it may cause ulcers in the crop.

Terbinifine - is an antifungal (not bacteria) and is one of the antifungals that do the least damage to a bird's liver. It is good that the vet is giving an antifungal too - because your bird has never had tests to find out if the infection is bacterial or fungal or both - yes they can have both at the same time.

You should give them both at the same time - because they may have both a bacterial and a fungal infection - again you don't know.
Thanks for the info! I appreciate it!
 

birdlovekk

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UPDATE:

Yesterday, Pineapple had some tests done:

1) X-Rays: Result is that her lungs are clear.

2) More poop and saliva analysis: Poop is clear. Saliva shows some infections and will be cultured for drug sensitivities. The vet said that there might not be enough bacteria to culture, in which case we just won't give her any more drugs.

3) Swollen mass cut open and cleaned out: Pineapple came through anesthesia perfectly fine. However, a *hole* was discovered in her skull! The bacteria from the pus had eaten through a spot in her skull in the middle right above the cere. As the flesh heals and feathers grow back, the hole may close up a little bit, but there's no way to fix it completely and the skull won't grow back. She now in effect has a permanent extra nostril, but without the filters and protections against foreign substances that her natural nostrils have. This will make her more susceptible to respiratory infections in the future, and she will probably sometimes sneeze on bodily fluids or liquids she drinks that make their way into places they shouldn't. The vet didn't seem to be saying that this was anything exactly devastating, but it is a danger to keep under observation in the future.

4) Blood-work cancelled: This wasn't strictly necessary, and since #3 was more traumatic than expected, the vet decided against doing it. We had already discussed possibly skipping this based on the situation.

Current Status: Waiting for cultures to come back in five days to know what, if any, additional medications are needed. Meanwhile, Ciprafloxacin + Terbinifine for one week. Disinfectant on the wound.

-----

I have to say, yesterday, I was seriously bummed out. I asked the vet how long the hole would have taken to form. Her answer: "It could have grown as quickly as two days, or taken as long as two weeks." TWO WEEKS? I took Pineapple to the first vet THREE WEEKS ago. I can't help thinking that if I'd been a more competent owner, I would have gotten her adequate care earlier that would have prevented this lifelong danger to her health. Also, I asked the vet to show me the right way to feed her the medication, and while Pineapple didn't like the taste, she had zero after-effects. The vet told me that the medicine she prescribed was chosen to be non-irritating to the bird's stomach. I still have no way of knowing if the Doxycycline, which caused Pineapple so much trauma and ill effects, was necessary, or if Baytril/Cipra might have done just as well without those ill effects. I do remember asking the second vet about it, and he said that if I insisted on giving her only one, it should be the Doxy. Now I wish I'd insisted on switching. I feel so bad for failing my bird. :(

But... after a night's sleep, I had to conclude that there is a good way to look at all this. First, that I found this vet at all. If we'd continued on as we were, Pineapple might no longer be with me in a few days. Instead, after an afternoon of enforced cage rest, she was raring to go. The swelling had really impeded her breathing, and after that was fixed, she was flying around and playing and singing almost like normal. Today, she's been very active, almost catching right up to her cagemate. The wound doesn't seem to bother her. She rubs her head sometimes, but she doesn't scratch at it, and when I put the disinfectant on she doesn't act like she's in terrible pain. I'm so happy. Giving her the Cipra is a breeze, too. She still hates it (and I can attest that it tastes bad, because I accidentally drank some from a cup), but it is nothing as bad as the Doxy, so right after it's in her, she can fly away and forget about it. Eating and drinking aren't impeded at all. I can also pretend that the Doxy, while horrible, did kill something, since the vet found an infection in her.

By the way, I was reluctant to give her the antibiotic before, but now that she has a huge wound and a hole in her head, obviously, she's getting it -- especially because it's not killing her appetite and wellness.

Another sign that Pineapple is probably feeling better is that Pineapple has been *crazy*. While Pineapple was sick, Biscuit was also stressed out and quiet a lot of the time. Now she's an absolute crazy thing, doing acrobats in her cage for me to let her out, flying around, and picking fights with Pineapple and reflective objects. I'd forgotten how much of a trouble-maker she used to be.

The weather is warm for the next couple of days, perfect healing weather. So, for now, the birds are happy and I'm happy. Hope the tests come out okay next week and that Pineapple remains infection-free for a long time. :)

-----

Storytime!:

Yesterday, the vet made a comment that I loved my bird very much and that Pineapple was a "lucky bird". I was too upset to answer, because I felt that she wasn't lucky at all to have such a stupid owner. Later that night, I thought back on that and just started *bawling*. Biscuit immediately came over to see what the noise was about. Pineapple didn't. After I finished, I went to find where Pineapple had gotten to. She was sitting on one of their favorite perches, calmly preening herself. I marched up to her and told her, "I was bawling my eyes out over you. Did you know that?" She didn't even flinch, just kept on with her preening like I wasn't even there.

Can I tell you? That made my day.

While she was sick, Pineapple basically had three modes: 1) hyperaware and running away from me because I might grab her, 2) clinging to me for comfort, or 3) sleeping.

Having her be her usual aloof bratty highness was the best thing this entire week. :)
 

iamwhoiam

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Sounds like you have found a much better vet and glad that things are being taken care of. Hope that Pineapple will get better with this treatment. As for the hole in her head...wow. That's scary. Sending positive thoughts for a full recovery. Great that she is doing better!!
 
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