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Urgent Baytril+Doxycycline+Meloxicam together okay? ACV for yeast infection?

Discussion in 'Bird Emergency Highway 911' started by birdlovekk, 4/16/18.

  1. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    Hi all! I've been reading posts, but this is my first time posting. I'm really desperate for advice. One of my birds nearly died the day before yesterday, and the other one has been quite sick for three weeks. I hope someone has experience with these medications.

    -----

    Short version:
    I have two budgies, Pineapple and Biscuit. Pineapple has had an on and off stuffy nose for a couple of months, and the flesh above her nose started swelling up. Vet prescribed Baytril + Doxycycline + Meloxicam + Vitamin A + Vitamin B Complex mixed with sugar water (for taste), 0.1mL twice a day, for three weeks. Does this sound reasonable?

    I asked and the vet very unhappily agreed to change to Doxycycline mixed with sugar water (for taste), 0.05mL twice a day, for three weeks. Does this sound reasonable?

    Biscuit, meanwhile, has a yeast infection. Vet prescribed Nyastin mixed with sugar water (for taste), 0.05mL twice a day, for ten days. However, I can't give her this medication for reasons described below. I suspect the yeast infection came from Pineapple, who developed it first as a result of the antibiotic and worsened by the sugar water.

    Questions:

    1. Should I switch to giving Pineapple the mix of three drugs, or continue with only the Doxycycline?

    2. Should I ask my doctor for a new medication mix without the sugar water, and if yes, how do I phrase it so that he will agree and not just kick me out entirely?

    3. Can Apple Cider Vinegar possibly cure yeast infections? At least, if I try it for a week, can it hurt my birds? How can I convince them to drink it if they don't like it?

    4. Anything else you can suggest?

    -----

    Long version:
    I have a 43-gram yellow budgie named Pineapple, and also a 34-gram blue budgie named Biscuit. Pineapple has had an on and off stuffy nose for a couple of months, and I didn't think anything of it because it always went away on its own. Three weeks ago, however, the flesh above her nose suddenly ballooned. It's really hard to find avian vets where I live. I found one (who also see all other types of animals).

    The vet looked at her (no tests) and diagnosed it as sinusitis. He prescribed her lysin in a mix of unspecified nutrients, 0.1mL thrice daily. However, he said it probably wouldn't work, and the swelling would never go away. He recommended surgery as the only permanent cure. He then sold me a heat lamp, which I set up. Since it's summer now and about 21-29 degrees C, I only used it occasionally with the cage covers off in the daytime, or at night with the covers on.

    My bird was very good and lapped up the lysin on her own from a cup, so I didn't have to use a syringe. I tried the lysin for a week, and the swollen part turned yellow and hard and fell off! I took her back to the vet to ask what was going on, since he had said the swelling would never go away. This time, he was very impatient with me. He told me that this was a normal part of the cycle, and that the swelling would just come back. He berated me for not keeping my bird warm enough, and he told me that surgery was the only option now.

    I asked about how effective the surgery was, and he said that about 70-80% of the birds this size make it. Well, I didn't want to risk that, especially since she seemed quite happy and was behaving normally. (I thought that it was better for her to die happy at home later, even if by only a few days, rather than to die now in the hands of a stranger.)

    I continued to give Pineapple the lysin, but two days later, the swelling indeed came back. I found a new vet farther away (also sees all types of animals). He looked at her and listened to her with a stethoscope, and he said she probably had chlamydia. He said that a test was available, but it would take a week, and it was only 50% accurate, so he recommended against it. He prescribed Baytril + Doxycycline + Meloxicam + Vitamin A + Vitamin B Complex mixed with sugar water, 0.1mL twice a day, for three weeks.

    I tried the cup trick with Pineapple, but she took one lick and ran away. I then fed her the medicine with a syringe. My bird threw up all over the place and was extremely uncomfortable for an hour after. I was worried that it was too many medications at once. When I searched online, I found that both Baytril and Doxycycline can cause vomiting, and that Meloxicam is not well tested for birds. I called the vet. The vet said it was probably the taste of the Doxycycline that made her throw up, and not to worry. However, after I asked, he agreed to give me only Doxycycline, at 0.05mL twice a day, for three weeks.

    I picked up the medicine the next day. Pineapple still hated it, would still look really uncomfortable and sometimes vomit anywhere from 10 minutes to 50 minutes after. I figured I was doing her good, though, so I (we) soldiered on, even though it was (is) breaking my heart. She was so happy even while she was sick, and now I was torturing her twice a day. She started eating less, and I had to tempt her with millet and shove carrots and fruit and leaves in front of her, when normally she would be flying over to snatch it from me.

    All of a sudden, two weeks later, my other bird, Biscuit, became lethargic one day and started throwing up. She threw up all night. The next day, she refused food and water and sat on the perch all puffed up. She still wanted to come outside, but then she would sit on the floor with her eyes half-closed. I thought she was going to die right in front of me!

    I rushed Biscuit to the vet, and the vet did a crop swab and said she had developed a yeast infection. He prescribed Nyastin, 0.05mL twice daily, for 10 days.

    By this time, tbh, I was very much regretting taking my birds to the vet at all. It's a 20-30 minute taxi ride there, and the room is cold, and the birds are stressed out. And then, everytime I give Pineapple her medicine, she is stressed out, and Biscuit is also super stressed out. Pineapple is naturally more chill, but Biscuit is very high-strung. I was (and am) absolutely convinced that if I give her medicine twice a day, she will die. I am not exaggerrating at all. I've raised this bird from two or three weeks old, and I know her personality.

    (Before you ask, no, the vet does not have other ways to administer the medication to my birds. No shots or water soluble medication. He did suggest a crop needle as an easier feeding mechanism, though if done wrong it can rupture the esophagus. I'm terrified I'll injure my birds, so that is not an option.)

    After getting back from the vet, I laid out some food on a towel and talked to Biscuit a lot and played with her. Finally, she did begin eating, and then she seemed to get some energy back. She even pooped a normal-looking poop later, when she'd had broken poop and diahhrea earlier in the day. When I eventually put her back in the cage, she looked much better. I made the decision that I would not give her the medicine. I would just let her live (or die) naturally.

    I did read that Apple Cider Vinegar is good for bacteria and fungus, so I bought some Braggs ACV and added three drops to their water cup. I watched as both birds drank some.

    The next morning, both birds were a little lethargic, but acting more or less happy. The day after that (today), Biscuit was actually acting like her normal self again! I made them sleep extra long and also take an afternoon nap, but while out, Biscuit was flying all over and eating and singing and everything. I don't know if it was the ACV, or just her immune system recovered, but she seems to be better now.

    Pineapple is a different story. She is still quite sleepy, and she was breathing heavily at the vet's so that even he commented on it. Today, while Biscuit was tearing around causing trouble, Pineapple mostly slept, played and ate a little, then slept some more. After her nap, I even found her sleeping on the cage floor instead of a perch. That is a very bad sign. (Once I let her out, however, she flew around a bit and was much perkier. I'm kind of hoping she was on the floor because she was hot and wanted to move away from the heat lamp up top.)

    I have been reading things online obsessively, and I read that taking antibiotics often causes a fungal infection, and that a bird with this infection should not eat sugary foods. This is terrible!

    I'm now wondering 1) Does Pineapple also have a yeast infection (which she passed to her cagemate) that resulted from the Doxycycline? and 2) Did the sugar water mixed with the Doxycycline make it all the worse?

    I want to ask my vet for a sugar-less mix. The vet is already unhappy with me, though. He still thinks I should be giving Pineapple the full mix of medication that he first prescribed. If I go back now and ask him for the changed prescription *and* no sugar because "I read it on the internet", I'm afraid he will altogether refuse to see me anymore. As I said before, finding a vet at all is very difficult. I've already pissed off the first vet by not agreeing to surgery. I don't want to completely sour things with this one, but I also don't want to be slowly killing my bird!

    In other news, while Pineapple drank the ACV yesterday, today, she turned up her nose at it, so I switched back to plain water. I'm not sure what to do about the yeast infection, since I don't want to take her back to the vet and give her yet more medication. I read that yeast infections are hard to treat and inevitably come back. My bird's quality of life is already in the dumps. I don't want to force-feed her medicine for the rest of her life. If she's going to die this week, even, I want it to be happy and feeling loved.

    Honestly, I think all of this is my fault. I didn't keep Pineapple warm enough, so she got a runny/stuffy nose. I gave her medication that is making her sick, without researching it first, and now she could die while miserable and in pain. My other bird has it too and may die suddenly one day with no warning. Now that I've started the antibiotic, I can't stop, though, so I'm just stuck. And now that they have the yeast infection, I can't reverse time. It's all a big mess and I wish I'd kept them home and happy with me in the first place.

    Please, what would you do in my place? I can distract myself in the daytime, but every night I'm just a mess of nerves and worry. I hate this. Even if it winds up being not the best choice, I wish I could settle on a clear path of action. I haven't slept through the night for two weeks, and I'm sure the birds are affected negatively by my mood as well. I could go out more so I'm not affecting them as much, but I'm scared to leave them alone for long, in case this is the last time I will see them.

    Okay, I'll stop whining now.


    More specifically, can you help answer the following?

    1. Should I switch to giving Pineapple the mix of three drugs, or continue with only the Doxycycline?

    2. Should I ask my doctor for a new medication mix without the sugar water, and if yes, how do I phrase it so that he will agree and not just kick me out entirely?

    3. Can Apple Cider Vinegar possibly cure yeast infections? At least, if I try it for a week, can it hurt my birds? How can I convince them to drink it if they don't like it?

    4. Anything else you can suggest?
     
  2. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    By the way, the vet did say that in addition to the oral medication, I could pair it with a medical humidifier(?). I looked it up, and I think it's properly translates to a nebulizer. It's quite expensive, though, and it would involve taking my already stressed bird and shutting her in a small box while pumping gas at her that she can't escape -- three times a day! I don't think any of us could take that stress. AND I would still have to keep giving her the oral medication, which is quite enough of a source of stress as it is. I've read that a regular humidifier is good for helping with chlymidia, because moist nasal tissue can better fight off the infection. However, I've also read that a humid environment encourages yeast growth. What to do...?!

    Also, I wasn't clear enough earlier: The Doxycycline is for three weeks, then a break of no medication for a week, then another three weeks. But the vet said to first give it to her for three weeks and see how she reacts. I'm on day 12 today. Her nose cleared up twice before stuffing up again, but those were also the clearest, hottest days of the last two weeks, so I suspect it was more the weather than the medication that made her better. I really can't tell if the Doxycycline is having a good effect or not, but I guess I have to finish the three weeks anyway so that she doesn't develop a super bug or something.

    Question 5: Humidifier or no? (I bought one before I knew the vet was talking about a type of medical equipment.)

    Question 6: I just thought of this: Should I give Pineapple the lysin, either now or after I finish the course of Doxycycline?
     
  3. iamwhoiam

    iamwhoiam Joyriding the Neighborhood Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Veteran I Can't Stop Posting! POSTAHOLIC

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    I think it's important that you consult with the vet and air your concerns. There is no harm in doing that.
    Are both birds together in the same cage? If one has a bacterial infection and one has a yeast infection then they are most probably infecting each other.
    No culture done with Pineapple? Culture would determine the type of bacteria and the best antibiotic to use. As for the combo medication....why did the vet prescribe two antibiotics?
    Meloxicam (Metacam) is an anti-inflammatory used to reduce pain. Why did the vet prescribe that?
    Only Biscuit was on the Nystatin and no other medications, correct?
    Lysine is an amino acid. Why did he recommend using that mixture? To improve and support nutritional needs?
    Vets will flavor medications sometimes to disguise the taste so that the bird will take it more easily. In addition, medications can be added to water although more accurate using syringe to administer medication. AND sometimes, as you have discovered, birds will not drink the water when things are added to it. Some people have success with putting the medication on food and making sure the bird eats all of that. For example, a small piece of toast with some almond butter.
    If bird has a yeast infection, it's important to medicate although ACV can be beneficial. When I use ACV I combine 16 mls of ACV with 1 liter of water. I refrigerate the mixture. @Lady Jane has experience with yeast infections in birds.

    If you are not happy with this vet you could always consult with another one.
    You also have to try not to stress out. Doesn't help you and doesn't help the birds. I know that it's easy to say but generally hard to do.
    Several threads here about using humidifers. Here is one: Humidifier Safety/Recommendations | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum
    I would check with the vet, too, about using a product called vetri-DMG. It's beneficial for supporting the immune system. https://www.amazon.com/VetriScience-Laboratories-0900590-030-Vetri-DMG-Liquid/dp/B00008DFDO


    Hope that Pineapple and Biscuit will be OK.

     
    Last edited: 4/16/18
  4. finchly

    finchly Rollerblading along the road Mayor of the Avenue Vendor

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    A few thoughts....

    ACV stops the yeast from progressing but it does not cure yeast. Which type of yeast is it?

    Probiotics. May help after you are finished with antibiotics.

    The crop needle is not as scary as it sounds and helps make sure you get the meds to the crop and they don’t aspirate it.

    If you put the med on food and the bird doesn’t eat it - then what? That doesn’t sound good. You need a correct dose.

    @Milo can you help?
     
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  5. Hankmacaw

    Hankmacaw Biking along the boulevard Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    ACV cannot cure a yeast/fungal infection. It will make the Ph of the water less compatible to fungus/yeast and therefore the digestive system less compatible for yeast.

    "Doxycycline is commonly used for treatment of Chlamydia infection. Because the treatment period required to eliminate the organism is uncertain, treatment for 45 days is recommended." Bacterial Diseases of Pet Birds - Exotic and Laboratory Animals - Merck Veterinary Manual

    You should probably read this article - chlamydia is one of the zoonotic diseases which means it can be passed from a bird to a human. You should be taking precautions against this. Chlamydiosis in Parrots | chlamydia in birds | psittacosis

    Both Baytril and Doxycycline are broad spectrum antibiotics, so I wonder why the vet is giving both at the same time Unless he suspects an organism that is specifically sensitive to the Baytril.

    I think that rather than arguing with your vet - asking him questions would be much more productive. All conscientious vets flavor meds so a bird is more likely to take them without a fight.



     
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  6. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    @iamwhoiam

    Thanks for the quick reply!

    I have "aired my concerns" to the vet five times in varying detail, and he is probably quite irritated with me by now. It is very difficult to find an avian vet here. According to online reviews and recommendations from the bird pet shop, these were already the two best (only) ones somewhat in the area, and neither of them are bird specialists. The second vet has more equipment than the first, but he is also unable to do most of the things I have been reading about (blood tests, cultures, shots, etc.). Unfortunately, I will not be able to find another vet, as you suggested.

    The vet says that both antibiotics will cover more things. He also said that if she does indeed have chlamydia, she is likely to have other things as well, so she should be given both antibiotics. (I did ask him if she might have sinusitis as the first vet said, and he said it's also possible, but neither vet has done any lab tests, except for the yeast infection for Biscuit. I didn't think to ask him to test Pineapple for yeast while I was there, though I'm pretty sure she has it, just by deduction.) Regarding the meloxicam, he simply said that it's an anti-inflammatory and pain-reliever, and both are "important for birds". In general, this country prescribes a lot of (what I see as) unnecessary medication for humans, so I'm leery that the culture is the same for pets.

    Yes, Biscuit was only prescribed the Nyastin. The vet did say that if after five days there's no improvement, we'll have to change medication. I've given her no medication so far (other than one day on ACV water) and I've seen vast improvement in two days. Go fig.

    The first vet prescribed lysin, not lysine. He spelled it out for me (and got quite angry with me when I suggested he might mean lysine). I looked it up, and there's not much information other than the Wikipedia page, which says that lysin is used as an antibacterial agent. I didn't see anywhere where it said it's used to treat sinusitis, though. I'm not sure why he prescribed it. I asked the second vet, and he wasn't sure either. I've read about sinus flushing for sinusitis, but unfortunately neither vet is able to do that.

    * So you think the sugar water is not doing any harm? I was worried it was feeding the yeast. If it's fine, though, I'll just continue as is with an easier mind.

    * If I gave Pineapple some ACV water with her medication by syringe, do you think it would be bad, e.g. counteract or interfere with the medication?

    Vetri-DMG sounds quite interesting. I've put it in my cart for now and will see about purchasing some tomorrow.

    Thanks for the info and links and the well wishes! I'll think about other ways to feed the medication, and I will check out the humidifier link and Lady Jane's posts tomorrow. It's 3:40AM for me here. I'll check on my birds one more time and then go to bed.

    Thanks again! I'm really grateful even just that you read my post. Have a great day!
     
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  7. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    I don't know what type of yeast it is. All the vet said was that she had yeast in her crop.

    Regarding probiotics, do you happen to recommend a brand? I read some posts about feeding birds yogurt, which I know I can get because I buy it all the time for myself. Would that work?

    Regarding crop needles, I don't know... I'll see about it if Pineapple throws up too much. (I am currently feeding with a syringe. If I medicate her long enough after she's eaten, she won't throw up, so I try to time it appropriately.)

    Thanks so much!
     
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  8. iamwhoiam

    iamwhoiam Joyriding the Neighborhood Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Veteran I Can't Stop Posting! POSTAHOLIC

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    Sorry thought that perhaps you had meant to type lysine. Don't know why vet would prescribe metacam unless there is some kind of inflammation or pain.
    If you provide us with your approximate location maybe someone would have a recommendation for another vet.
    It's always good to check with vet when adding any supplements on your own. Some supplements might be contraindicated.
    Why is the second vet unable to do cultures or blood work? Just do a swab for the culture and send that out to the lab although some vets have in house labs. Instead of just prescribing any antibiotics one would determine which microorganisms would be causing the issues and then the correct antibiotic/antifungals could be prescribed.
    Chlamydia = psittacosis which as per @Hankmacaw can be transmitted to humans, but there is no definitive diagnosis here. No tests done to determine if your bird has been infected with Chlamydia psittaci.

    My vet has prescribed Baytril (and other antibiotics) for birds with suspected bacterial infections but then she does a swab and that is sent out for culture. When the results come back the medication can be changed as needed if something grows out and it is resistant to the Baytril.
     
    Last edited: 4/16/18
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  9. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    Thank you!

    Yes, I've read many places that say the treatment should be 45 days. I've also read one from an Australian vet that said it could be 7-10 days if you want to keep or build back up natural chlamydia resistance. Then, my vet has assured me two times that three weeks, a break, then another three weeks is the way it's done. Maybe his dosage is different, or maybe the textbooks he learned from is different. I have no idea. I'll do the three weeks for now, as he said.

    Thank you for the links!

    Do you think I should do the Baytril simultaneously? The vet said he wants both because we don't know what the problem is, so we can catch more this way. He also said that if she does indeed have chlamydia, she is likely to have other things as well anyway, so she should be given both antibiotics. I am hesitant to give her so much as once. I'm pretty sure too many antibiotics can be bad for a person/bird, and my birds have had nothing but seeds and fresh food for the two years I've had them, no supplements or anything. I'm worried how she'd handle it.

    I have never argued with my vet, but thanks for the advice. I have asked him many questions and told him in roundabout ways about what I've thought or read. He is not a bad person at all, but he isn't a specialist, and I don't want to bruise his ego at the same time as I want the best care for my birds. I'm very relieved to hear you say that medication is normally flavored as a rule. I have no experience with medicating birds prior to this. The flavoring doesn't seem to help, but the vet did say that Doxycycline is so bitter that it probably wouldn't do more than blunt the taste very slightly, poor thing.
     
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  10. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    (Sorry about not including your answer earlier. Hope it wasn't confusing. I missed the Quote button.)

    Oh, good idea. I'm in Taipei City, Taiwan. If anyone can recommend a good vet, please let me know!

    The vet simply doesn't have the resources or the know-how. We can talk all day about what 'should' be done (I have read so much about tests and treatments that I can't use here), but if he can't do it, there is no use in being angry about it... I mean, on the upside, vet visits here are dirt cheap, only about US$20 per visit, including medication. I remember my mom paying *US$200* for a vet visit for a budgie I had in grade school, and that bird died anyway.

    I think exactly because we can't know what's wrong, his solution is to throw out a wide net. I don't know. I'm thinking, if no improvement after three weeks, maybe move on to Baytril then?
     
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  11. Lady Jane

    Lady Jane Cruising the avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran I Can't Stop Posting!

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    The treatment of choice for avian gastric disease has been and still is amphotericin B in the US. Nystatin is sometimes given but not as effective. I have lost one budgie to this terrible condition and take measures to help prevent it from raising its ugly head again. Budgies are highly prone to AGY and my avian vet said most of the time it is passed on to the babies from parents. Some do not show symptoms but are carriers. The male budgie I have now, Murphy, started with symptoms of yeast which I recognized early on and took him to the vet right away. He was put on ampho for 10 days and we were lucky to have it work. My first budgie to get this had the entire medicine chest and herbal remedies for AGY but all of that did no good. He entered into the wasting period where the bird will eat well but loose weight because the nutrients are no longer absorbed. Its a slow death. Knowing the signs of symptoms of AGY in a budgie is vital for anyone that owns one. Early recognition and treatment are needed.

    So now I give my birds 2 tsp. in unfiltered apple cider vinegar for one week out of every month as a precaution. I would like to mention that Murphy was eating fresh corn on the cob at the time he had the symptoms of AGY. It is my belief that this fresh corn may have been the cause. Why? Fresh corn is difficult for both birds and humans to digest. I think the outer covering of a kernel of corn may have stayed in the crop too long and promoted the formation of yeast. I no longer feed any corn in any form to my birds. There have been no reoccurrences since that time about 8 months ago. Mind you, this is my thinking and I am not advising anyone to stop feeding corn.
     
    Last edited: 4/16/18
  12. finchly

    finchly Rollerblading along the road Mayor of the Avenue Vendor

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  13. finchly

    finchly Rollerblading along the road Mayor of the Avenue Vendor

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    Can you get some Neem tea leaves? If so use a ratio of 1:8 leaves to water, steep for an hour, and offer that to your birds. Anti-fungal and anti-bacterial.
     
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  14. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    Has anyone heard of surgery for sinusitis? Pineapple’s nose is blocked up and the swelling over her cere up again. It looks like three weeks ago when she was first sick, except last time she was still strong and active, and now she is much weaker and lethargic. If it is sinusitis after all, what can I do?

    The only treatment I saw online was flushing and nebulization? The first vet said surgery was the only next option after lysin didn’t work.
     
  15. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    In your opinion, would it be harmful to go ahead and switch to the three-drug combo like the vet wanted? It sounds like so much... but she’s not getting better.

    Should I try the nebulizer? Aside from being expensive, I feel like it’d be quite traumatizing, so I’d only try if it has a high chance of helping.
     
  16. Lady Jane

    Lady Jane Cruising the avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran I Can't Stop Posting!

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    That must make him feel miserable. The eyes can get swollen in a bird with sinus infections. It's back to vet time.
     
  17. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    @finchly

    Thanks! I’ll see if someplace carries probiotics and/or neem leaves.
     
  18. birdlovekk

    birdlovekk Sitting on the front steps

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    @Lady Jane

    Oh my, that sounds terrifying! I’m so sorry for your budgie. I’m glad Murphy made it! Thank you so much for sharing. It must be hard to remember.

    I’ll call the vet. But it’s stressful for the birds to travel and I feel like he’s just making guesses and prescribing whatever drugs they have. I’m so uncertain about everything. Do you think I should give her the three-drug mix?
     
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  19. Lady Jane

    Lady Jane Cruising the avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran I Can't Stop Posting!

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    Let's see what @Hankmacaw says. She is good about the meds and so is @Milo

    Good luck.
     
  20. Birdbabe

    Birdbabe Joyriding the Neighborhood Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    Location:
    The valley of the sun
    The only concern I have here, is the sugar,,sugar loves yeast, and yeast loves sugar...so, In my educated opinion, no sugar! They cant, or shouldn't be tasting the oral meds if you putting it correctly behind the tongue and glottis into the throat..
    As for the blocked nares,,will she let you gently clean them with a Q-tip?
     

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