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  2. This forum is for advice about initial treatment given to your injured/sick bird until a qualified avian veterinarian is available.
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Urgent Baby with Nutritional Deficiency

Discussion in 'Bird Emergency Highway 911' started by IttyBittyBirds, 7/1/19.

  1. finchly

    finchly Biking along the boulevard Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    Wow. Hardly!

    I did my own research for a book I wrote as well as an article in an avian publication. I have not just consulted with ONE avian vet, I have 2 that I use regularly (different locations, different towns). I consulted with 4 on my book. I also consulted with several avian nutrition experts. I am confident in what I say.

    So if one of us drinks Kool-Aid, it's certainly not me.

    Ummmm ok first you tell me I shouldn't eat the same as a bird, then you use human studies to justify your discussion of bird diets! I'll stick with the experts, thank you. My flock right now is healthier than it's ever been, so I'll feed my way and you feed yours. I just hate that newcomers get misguided.

    Just because you choose to insult everyone who disagrees with you --- doesn't make you an expert.
     
  2. finchly

    finchly Biking along the boulevard Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    Then don't use it, saroj! I am so sick of this "No D3" chant. Mine get it from SUNLIGHT. And egg yolk. And cod liver oil. And probably other foods. I don't choose to use synthetic vitamins as a means to an end. So what?

    And y'all only know this one sliver of information, so you still aren't there as far as calcium synthesis. What about the calcium / phosphorus ratio??????
     
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  3. Hankmacaw

    Hankmacaw Biking along the boulevard Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    @finchly Just an illustration that others can be as snarky as you are. Didn't you study Art or something like that.

     
  4. saroj12

    saroj12 Ripping up the road Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    let's see pictures of your 100 birds in the sunlight please! :)
     
  5. Laurie

    Laurie Rollerblading along the road Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Veteran Vendor

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    First this in not meant as a personal affront just as information for someone new to avian nutrition so that they can have a more complete picture.

    The only part of this that I will speak to is the Vitamin D. I just looked it up on the TOPS website the other day.

    It does have Vitamin D but it is Vitamin D2 which can not be used directly by the body. Plants do not make or use Vitamin D3. Animals eat plants and with sun exposure convert the D2 to D3. So you must either have D2 plus sun, or get D3 from an animal source or it to be useful to the body.

    When the body is exposed to sunlight for a sufficient amount of time then it can convert D2 to D3 and use it. If you bird is not also getting Direct sunlight on it's skin such as feet and bare parts of it's face, it can not convert the D2 to D3. So without daily sun exposure D2 alone is useless to the bird.

    So while TOPS does have Vitamin D it is not helping your bird unless your bird is getting sunlight each day as well. Does this make it bad, not necessarily, it could be very good for some birds. I don't feel like it can be said to be complete though and while not required, I do very much dislike how the TOPS website address this in their FAQ, they are not educating but rather trying to sell to the under educated. An educated consumer may use tops, for sure but they are no doubt adding more to their diet to provide D3.

    Also, any manufacturer of pet food who has been around for any length of time and is recommended by a vet is adding the vitamins after the heat treating process. That is exactly why they are added, to replace those lost in processing or those missing in the first place. Many reputable pellets are created by and tested by vets on generations of birds and are backed up by lab results showing that birds are receiving a complete diet.

    Again, TOPS certainly can have a place in a well rounded diet but it is not as complete as many people believe. The D3 issue is the only thing keeping me from seriously considering TOPS :(
     
    Last edited: 7/2/19
  6. saroj12

    saroj12 Ripping up the road Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    My birds like TOPS but I’ll Be supplementing with lafeber avi vera vitamins. They have gone off Harrison’s ever since I added Wayley’s to their diet. Wayley’s also sells a vitamin supplement which Marsha is sending me.
     
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  7. IttyBittyBirds

    IttyBittyBirds Walking the driveway

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    Not sure if this link will work, I can’t seem to upload the video, but that was him “trying” the new pellets today after having some formula. All a no go, but will continue to offer them all incase he decides to actually try some. I even coated them in formula...he just licked it off and spat out the pellets.

    Thank you! I need to place another order from @Wayley's Dailies and try some pellets! My Senegal is obsessed with stuff from her and has an order on the way, but the Pellets are a GREAT idea! I do. Think Jax liked the Veggie balls before we ran out...I know he liked the Calming Cookies (which both should arrive soon)!
     
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  8. IttyBittyBirds

    IttyBittyBirds Walking the driveway

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    Guess the video didn’t work lol sorry!
     
  9. finchly

    finchly Biking along the boulevard Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    Well I do it in rotation so it's never all 28 at one time! It's like 4 parrotlets, ok now swap those in and take these out, etc. I do try to give them exposure to it. I'll try to get some photos.

    Lately the heat index has been so high - Captain Jack wasn't out there 15 minutes when he started holding his wings out and panting. So I have to really watch them.

    They definitely got sunlight every day when they were on the lanai but then there were other problems! There's no clear answer.

    This is good, I encourage everyone to supplement with vitamins - NOT necessarily daily but, I was serious when I said you kinda need to do math, if you're doing pellet food (not "you" Saroj, you know this already - I mean a general you) and they have vitamins then you don't want to overdose your D3 or whatever. So supplement some. I know there's a popular forum where they're continually told not to supplement when doing pellets. Buttttt.... they're also told to supply at least some percent, I forget, like 25% fresh food or chop. OK so then the pellets are only 75% of the diet right? So already there could be a deficit. For there not to be a deficit in the vitamins/minerals, we have to feed a TON of fresh foods, a large variety every single day and most of us don't do that. We might start out great but dwindle down to 3-4 foods. Then there's even more need for the supplements.

    I was previously, up until maybe 2 months ago, feeding about 50% raw/fresh and 50% pellets/seeds (my little guys still need a good amount of seed). At that point I supplemented with AviVita gold 3 times a week. I also have a few other products, like Feather Fast and Bloomford, and there's a Gouldian-specific powder (I think it's a lot like China Prairie Nourish) they get that one daily. And I put calcium gluconate in their water once a week.

    I admit that now, right this minute, they are not getting any supplemental vitamins. Well, not a regular schedule. I'm still concentrating on the all-raw, no pellets diet. While doing it, I'm asking myself : Do I want to do it? Is it best? Is it going to require supplements? Etc. They get egg shell, dry egg food, and one of several oils. The sprouted/raw diet is expensive and time-intensive, and several species means several different mixes. And if I take them off pellets, will a pet sitter be willing to provide the required food? (I can freeze it for them but - they'd still have to put it out, take it back up etc) Pellets are easy for someone who's bird sitting. Getting a food dehydrator is still a possibility.

    At some point I will figure out what % is going to be raw, and whether it's going to include pellet food or not. Then I'll probably utilize some multi-vitamin or other. If I can maintain the all-raw diet and give plenty of protein, carbs, etc. in acceptable amounts there will be no need for supplemental vitamins, according to Dr. Crean. I'm going to have a couple birb's bloodwork done to be sure that I'm doing it right.

    I need to be working instead of leisure time but I do want to address OVER supplementation. For people who feed pellets AND eggs AND fresh foods AND give vitamins -- it is very easy to overdo it. If you want to provide D3 so you feed cod liver oil -- -that is really easy to overdo.

    Are you positive? Can you show me proof? Cause that's not what I was told during interviews. That was maybe 1 year ago.
     
  10. expressmailtome

    expressmailtome Ripping up the road Administrator Celebirdy of the Month Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    Please try to remain calm here. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions as long as they are respectful of others.
     
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  11. finchly

    finchly Biking along the boulevard Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Spotlight Award Avenue Veteran

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    I'll put my education up against yours any day of the week, Mary Lynn. Yes I am studying art now, I am older and have some free time.

    I wasn't the one being snarky.
     
  12. IttyBittyBirds

    IttyBittyBirds Walking the driveway

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    Jax took a good bit of formula before bed last night!! I added some raw honey which the vet recommended for me to try and he is MUCH perkier then he had been so far today! I spoke to a few people who are very experienced in hand rearing and it seems like once in a blue you just get a baby who wants to revert to baby-dom for a while longer. They said to just hand feed as needed and try re-weaning at 6 months. Apparently it is more common with macaws, but other species do this from time to time too. I had a few people message me on IG too with advice so am feeling much better about it all today!

    Pic of the messy formula faced baby and his super jealous big bro who is a hormonal jealous mess right now LOL

    C68E8347-2F43-4D47-86F5-333CDC34C1C6.jpeg 496BE1AD-72C4-4141-B567-63CF9E375949.jpeg
     
  13. IttyBittyBirds

    IttyBittyBirds Walking the driveway

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    Just wanted to update everyone! Jax is doing SOOOOO much better! Handfeeding not only jumpstarted him with eating again, but also made out bond sooooo much stronger! He is so attached and affectionate now, which allows him to trust me more! So now when I offer new foods and do the whole you can’t have what I am eating routine to entice him it usually works!! He decided he loves ZuPreem Naturals, which isn’t my first choice, but it seems to be a healthy enough pellet and beggars can’t be choosers! LOL

    He has also started trying a few more new foods. He seems to like romaine shockingly (so does Waldo oddly enough), and I think he tried a few veggies yesterday when I wasn’t looking. Still leaves most of his chop and fresh stuff untouched, but at least he is expanding a tiny bit! He also LOVED the Harrisons Omega Bird Bread I made the other day! Thank you all so much for the help and support, we are forever great full! :heart:
     
  14. Laurie

    Laurie Rollerblading along the road Mayor of the Avenue Avenue Veteran Vendor

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    That is excellent. Very likely he reverted to baby behaviors in the stress of a new home. It is very common. The best way to avoid this is for the breeder to keep them longer after the are weaned so they become more confident. Ever bird is an individual, however, so it is entirely possible that you little guy just needed a little extra TLC than most. Keep up the good work!
     

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