Apple Cider Vinegar?

[rmgerdes]

Hello! We've got a little ecol-i break out in our flock. It isn't serious, but we're concerned because everyone had it and everyone doesn't get into our months (the caiques can be almost impossible to keep out!).

We're doing a round of antibiotics now, but I remember reading before on another forum that adding apple cider vinegar or grapefruit seed extract to your birds drinking water can help them grow health bacterias and keep bad ones at bay. But I can't remember how much to add to their drinking water.

We were thinking about doing the apple cider vinegar, but do you have recommendations between the two or dosage guidelines?

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Tangle Elf]

With vinegar, I just pour some in. That probably isn't very helpful. I do less for a smaller bowl and more for a bigger bowl. With GSE, I put one drop in the little bowls and 2 drops in the bigger bowls.

 

[Monica]

I would recommend ACV over GSE. ACV is more natural than GSE (or so I've heard), and probably healthier to ingest, too! GSE may be great for cleaning, but best not to allow your birds to consume it in any way. I believe my a-vet recommends 1 tbs per quart of water, or 1-2 tsp per 8oz of water.


Please keep in mind that too much of a good thing can be bad.

 

[Mizzely]

I do 1 drop of GSE per 16 to 20 oz of water... there are people on this forum I have an immense respect for that have been using it with their birds for years.

I do not use ACV

 

[Phoe Phoe]

Both are great.

GSE contains opc's and polypropenols. It's been shown to regulate things like cholesterol and hypertension. Also, it has very high antioxidant activity for free radicals that are water soluble (meaning they don't reside in your fat stores--other antioxidants are for that). It's a common human nutritional supplement, as well. I don't see how it isn't natural, but would be interested to know the reasoning behind that claim.

ACV is for raising the overall blood pH, which has been shown to have a direct effect on controlling the formation of things like tumors and masses. So, even though it is a vinegar which means that it is acidic in nature, it causes an alkalizing effect on the body which then has many health effects.

I don't know about using them together, though. I don't know if they would interact or not when mixed in the same water. I guess you could test it by mixing some together to see if any precipitate forms.

 

[Monica]

I know that a senegal got a fungal infection, although the cause of it is unknown, it is believed to be linked to the GSE that was used in the sprouting process of his seeds. It's possible that the owner may have used too much, but either way, GSE may be killing all bacteria, good and bad, and from what I've read, it's not a natural product. It's synthesized.

Here's information from the Feeding Feathers Yahoo Group.

Previously posted to the list

This study mentions citricidal by name, and shows the presence of benzethonium chloride in concentrations deemed unlikely to be possible without being added:

Takeoka G, Dao L, Wong RY, Lundin R, Mahoney N. Identification of benzethonium chloride in commercial grapefruit seed extracts. J Agric Food Chem. 2001 49(7):3316–20.

here's a link to the study:
http://naturalingredient.org/Articles/takeokagrapefruitseed.pdf


Great site:
http://sagescript.com/grapefruit_seed.htm
A Germanphysicist developed this product back in 1970. His purpose in doing so was to produce a powerful antimicrobial that was non-toxic and could be used for cleaning or disinfecting food processing areas.

It is just not a "natural" product, it is synthesized. They don't even start with whole seeds.


I'm sure there are non toxic or less toxic versions of GSE (and I have high regard for the folks at mountain rose), but what red flags it for me is that it seems that you need to make it in a lab for it to work. I know people who've made this at home in various ways and found it ineffective.

This link (Grapefruit Seed Extract contains Parabens says Yes) presents a number of studies that show that GSE preps commonly contain unlabelled adulterants; here's a quick excerpt (the article has links to supportive analysis):

"Independent Research has proven that grapefruit seed extract has no intrinsic antimicrobial action. More shocking is that the "demonstrated" antimicrobial activity is derived from the synthetic (not naturally occurring) preservatives added to and detected in commercially available grapefruit seed extract products. The synthetic preservatives found include Methyl paraben (can mimic Estrogen), Triclosan (can cause allergic contact dermatitis) Benzalkonium chloride (disinfectant, skin and eye irritant) and Benzethonium chloride (disinfectant, skin and eye irritant only permitted in rinse off products as prolonged contact with the skin is harmful). These synthetic adulterants are not declared on the product ingredient list."

Whether these chemicals were added in or are formed during whatever "extraction" process they use, I don't know.


***
Here are a few links to interesting abstracts. The second is an American paper that may be worth purchasing if you are interested, although I would be surprised if brand names are revealed.

Abstract of an interesting Japanese paper looking at the ethanolic extract compared to GSE.
[Analysis of components in natural foo... [Eisei Shikenjo Hokoku. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI

Abstract of US paper showing synthetic benzethonium chloride and triclosan.
Simultaneous identification and quantification by ... [Pharmazie. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI

Here's another that was undertaken because "suspicions about the true nature of the active compounds arose when synthetic disinfectants
such as benzethonium or benzalkonium chloride were found in commercial products"
Development and validation of an HPLC/UV/M... [J Agric Food Chem. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

And a few websites pulled up with the information.
Gaia Research - Toxic Grapefruit Seed Extract
Exposure (practically at the bottom of the page... Press "Ctrl + F" and search for GSE)
Grapefruit Seed Extract Interview with Richard Perry


I don't care if people use it as a cleaning agent in cleaning surfaces, but I don't really feel safe having it potentially being ingested by our birds either through food or through their water. I know many have used it with no harmful side effects, but it still worries me. It's just not as natural as many would have you believe it to be.

 

[Phoe Phoe]

Both are great.

GSE contains opc's and polypropenols. It's been shown to regulate things like cholesterol and hypertension. Also, it has very high antioxidant activity for free radicals that are water soluble (meaning they don't reside in your fat stores--other antioxidants are for that). It's a common human nutritional supplement, as well. I don't see how it isn't natural, but would be interested to know the reasoning behind that claim.

ACV is for raising the overall blood pH, which has been shown to have a direct effect on controlling the formation of things like tumors and masses. So, even though it is a vinegar which means that it is acidic in nature, it causes an alkalizing effect on the body which then has many health effects.

I don't know about using them together, though. I don't know if they would interact or not when mixed in the same water. I guess you could test it by mixing some together to see if any precipitate forms.

NOTE: The GSE I mentioned here meant grapeseed extract. Not grapefruit seed extract.

 

[Monica]

That very well may make a difference! (Well, there ya go! Learn something new! ^.^) I see everyone recommending and selling GrapeFRUIT Seed Extract, but I know even less about GrapeSEED Extract. I'd be curious to know more on how it's made.