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AIL and DE - How to Use?

zvezdast

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I just bought Avian Insect Liquidator and Diatomaceous Earth (food grade) in the hopes of eliminating the occasional roaches (the big ones) that appear in the house. (I'll spray outside the house with the regular pesticide.)
I recently canceled the "green" pest control service, before they have done an initial service, and thought to give these products first a chance. I've read on AA about how great they are.

But even though they are advertised as safe for birds, my concern is how to use them. I've read concerns about DE, as fine powder, affecting the breathing. Since birds' respiratory systems are so delicate, I want to make sure she is safe. I guess AIL is more safe than DE when it comes to breathing, unless ingested before drying.

My bird goes everywhere! (only while supervised) She flies to almost all the rooms, and walks on the floors, and gets her little beak all over! I thought to spray the baseboards in all the bedrooms with DE (she mostly doesn't fly to the floor in the bedrooms) and with AIL in living area/kitchen/dining/bathrooms where she sometimes plays on the floor.

I will turn off the AC while applying DE. But if she later flies by the sprayed powder, I fear it would just go all up in the air! Not good! Should I not let her into the room with DE for few days and then just wipe it off? Or should it stay applied longer to be effective?

Is AIL safe when dry? She covers every corner of the kitchen floor, so could lick the sprayed liquid. Do I need to wipe AIL before it is safe for her to walk around?

Please share your experience with these products. Thanks!

... I hate bugs!
 
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Familyof12

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But even though they are advertised as safe for birds, my concern is how to use them. I've read concerns about DE, as fine powder, affecting the breathing. Since birds' respiratory systems are so delicate, I want to make sure she is safe. I guess AIL is more safe than DE when it comes to breathing, unless ingested before drying.
I've read AIL is excellent through this forum although I've never used it. @saroj posted something about this and was excellent.

I have used DE and use it often. My mother has extremely sensitive asthma (we moved from Hawaii to California because of it) and she is fine with it. You would have to breath a lot of DE and for long long periods of time to get sick from it. You can put it on them like talcum powder lightly. Get it down to the skin as much as possible, by rubbing it in. I give our birds a lot of "scritches" when I do this. They do the rest. The fine powder cuts up the exoskeleton of the insect. This will not kill any soft-bodied bugs such as slugs, maggots, worms, etc. It will kill any insect with a hard outside shell.

Google DE and read about before you use it. DE can irritate the eyes and nose if inhaled extensively or gets into the eyes. I can't imagine anyone would dunk their heads in it.

DE is used extensively in organic agriculture. It is the most natural and safe bug killer. I use DE on our chickens directly in the fall. Right before rainy season. I've never had mites but I don't plan to either. It looks horrific. I check my birds every day. Eyes, beak, nose, feathers, feet, and vent. When checking feathers, I check down to the skin in random patches to assure they are healthy. I have dusted my home and vacuumed with it. I use DE in the bottom tray of the cages and occasionally sprinkle it on my birds. So far, I don't have any bugs in the house. I don't use the off the shelf pesticides. I won't trust them until I've researched the heck out of it.
 

jmfleish

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DE is made from microscopic crustaceans that are dried up and are like tiny little razors when inhaled. Please do not use them around animals of any kind but especially not with birds. The Chicken Chick writes a great article on why you should not use it with chickens. I'll see if I can find the article.
 

zvezdast

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DE is made from microscopic crustaceans that are dried up and are like tiny little razors when inhaled. Please do not use them around animals of any kind but especially not with birds. The Chicken Chick writes a great article on why you should not use it with chickens. I'll see if I can find the article.
That was my concern as well, but then the food grade DE I got specifically says safe around pets.
 

Familyof12

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Food grade DE is completely SAFE.

Is Using Diatomaceous Earth To Kill Bugs Safe Around Parrots?

If you get anything less than food grade, there is no guarantee as it will be fillers. NOT DE. I've used it for over 10 years now. I'm an extensive gardener. I've known farmers all over the world who use this on their animals, specifically chickens. The problem for infestation of mites is death for chickens. To avoid having the problem in the first place is to avoid wet areas. However, my chickens are outside in a coop. We keep them in dry eccoflakes. These get wet when it rains. We will go out and clean it after the rains go away. However, during that time, we could get mites.

FOOD GRADE DE IS SAFE. Just don't stick your head in a bucket of it.
 

jmfleish

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Food grade DE is NOT safe!

This came from The-chicken-chick.com. If you go to her web site and search for DE you can see her references. There is no way I would use this stuff, food grade or otherwise, anywhere near any of my pets or myself, EVER!

DIATOMACEOUS EARTH (DE) THE CUT AND DRY TRUTH
Food grade diatomaceous earth (also known as DE and fossilized shell flour) is a naturally-occurring, fossilized mineral dust with microscopic, razor-sharp edges that act as a mechanical insecticide by slicing into insects' bodies and absorbing their bodily fluids thereby dehydrating them to death. I do not use or advocate the use of food grade diatomaceous earth with backyard chickens for any reason. The assurance that DE is a “natural” product lulls users into a false sense of safety about its regular use in chickens’ environment, but arsenic and mercury are natural too- natural does not mean safe for every purpose. The presence of DE in the environment is a health hazard to humans and chickens.


RESPIRATORY HAZARD

Silicon dioxide, the drying element in DE, exists primarily in the amorphous form, but also contains the more dangerous, crystalline form. The Material Data Safety Sheets written by manufacturers of food grade DE caution users to avoid creating dust, avoid inhaling dust, use local exhaust ventilation, wear coveralls, use respirators and wear safety goggles. The use of DE in the coop or dust bath ensures its constant presence in the air.

DE is a respiratory hazard to chickens- it is known to create scar tissue on the lungs that impairs respiration. While chickens may live a decade or less, breathing crystalline silica regularly is known to cause cancer and chronic pulmonary disease in humans, so even if chicken DE weren’t a health hazard to chickens, the daily danger of airborne, respirable DE particles in the extremely dusty atmosphere of a chicken yard every day ought to scare the tar out of users. Yes, it’s natural, yes it’s organic, yes it’s cancer-causing when inhaled in sufficient amounts over time.

IMMUNE SYSTEM SUPPRESSANT
While we typically think of the immune system as working inside the body, skin is the largest organ of the chicken’s immune system and its first line of defense against pathogens and disease. Skin’s functions are to act as a barrier against pathogens and other potentially harmful substances, retain vital fluids and gases, and alerts chickens to the proximity of potential threats with its network of highly sensitive nerve endings. Another aspect of the immune system is the mucous membranes in the mouth, vent, eyes and ears that possess populations of beneficial microflora charged with defending ports of access into the chicken’s body from invasion by pathogens. DE dries these moist membranes, disrupting the beneficial populations of microflora, rendering the bird vulnerable to pathogens and disease. Yet another detrimental drying effect of DE on the immune system is robbing chickens of the natural oils they preen onto their feathers to maintain good condition and provide effective insulation in cold weather.
If the insecticide action of DE is to cut into insects’ hard exoskeletons and dry them to death, DE is most assuredly lacerating and drying out your chicken’s immune system!

WHY DO SOME CHICKEN KEEPERS USE DE?
I think many backyard chicken keepers believe they should use DE because someone recommended it to them without understanding its dangers. A look at commonly articulated reasons for using DE with chickens reveals several things: it’s unnecessary, it’s unsafe, and it’s ineffective for the purported uses.
The primary purported benefits of food grade DE by chicken hobbyists are as a drying agent in coop litter, an insecticideand a de-wormer, but food grade DE is not approved in the US for any of those uses with chickens. DE is only approved for use as a pelleting aid, anti-caking agent and flow agent in livestock feed not to exceed 2% of the total diet. In other words, it helps pellets stick together and prevents wet feed ingredients from sticking to storage containers and machinery.1


Purported Use #1: Absorb Moisture & Neutralize Ammonia
While densely populated commercial poultry houses are expected to have difficulty controlling moisture and ammonia fumes in the litter, backyard chicken keepers should not. There is no excuse for a backyard chicken coop to be so wet or so dirty that it smells like ammonia. If your chicken coop smells like ammonia, the coop should be cleaned, ventilation improved, and an alternate litter type used that will keep the coop dry. DE does not neutralize ammonia.

Purported Use #2: Insecticide
We would never fathom taking antibiotics daily as a preventative due to fear of one day contracting a bacterial infection; similarly, chickens should not be subjected to any insecticide daily as a preventative measure due to the fear of lice or mites. It is unnatural and unnecessary to seek to eradicate every insect in the chicken yard, all day, every day with diatomaceous earth.

Diatomaceous earth kills indiscriminately. The ability of beneficial bacteria to flourish in a deep litter system and in compost depends upon on a balanced ecosystem of bacteria and insect activity; efforts to kill all the bad bugs also kill the desirable good ones. One manufacturer’s advisory warns: “Avoid dusting flowers and other areas where bees and beneficial insects may land, as diatomaceous earth has the potential to negatively impact most insects that come in contact with it.”2

If it ever becomes necessary to use an insecticide, there are other much more effective, natural insecticides available that do not endanger health of chickens, humans or beneficial insects as diatomaceous earth does.

Purported Use #3: De-wormer
Because DE is an absorbent, when placed in a wet environment such as the digestive tract, it becomes ineffective. DE particles cannot dehydrate and kill worms or intestinal parasites in the gut if the particles are already full of water in the same way a sponge saturated with water cannot absorb more water. Further, the sharp edges have the capacity to inflict microscopic lacerations in the bird’s mouth, esophagus and crop- at least until they become fully saturated by bodily fluids.
 

Familyof12

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Every time you go to the beach you are breathing it. If DE is that dangerous for birds, they wouldn't exist on islands. Drive by a farm with your windows down, yes you are breathing it. It is everywhere already. It is a naturally occurring sand broken down from the skeletal remains of tiny animals that existed millions of years ago, it is everywhere.
  • Food Grade: This type contains 0.5–2% crystalline silica and is used as an insecticide as well as an anti-caking agent in the agricultural and food industries. It is approved for use by the EPA, USDA and FDA (3, 4).
  • Filter Grade: Also known as non-food grade, this type is said to contain upwards of 60% crystalline silica. It is toxic to mammals but has many industrial applications, including water filtration and the production of dynamite.
Again, we are speaking insecticides. Between the balance of having fleas, mites and ticks affecting the health of my family or using Orkin, I'm going to use DE. In large quantities (like in the photo above) yes, of course it would affect you, even dirt or dust would if you walked into that cloud! I put it on my lawn and especially used it during the drought we had. I use Clorox in my laundry occasionally but I don't throw gallons of it around my house or ask my kids to breath in the fumes from the bottle.

We are now in the times of Zika, West Nile, and only lord knows what after these hurricanes we've had with extensive flooding and the biohazards in that water. Zika and West Nile last years in your body and the symptoms are debilitating. If you look at how these viruses have spread, they are all in the Southern States. Same with Lime disease and it is continuing to rise and not curable. I'm not risking it. It isn't worth the risk in my area.

In the end, everyone has to weigh the risks and make their own choices as to insecticides. I can't speak for AIL as I haven't purchased the product nor have I had a chance to look at the ingredients. If someone has something better for us down south, I'd love to hear it.
 

jmfleish

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Those tiny little animals are diatoms and they are not in the quantities that you will find in a bag of DE versus a beach and they are not in the air in concentrated quantities either. If you want something for ticks and mosquitoes, I hate to say it, but most scientists suggest products that contain DEET. DE isn't really going to help with either of those on humans anyway. Do what you feel you need to, I personally don't suggest it and won't use it for me or any of my parrots or my chickens.
 

zvezdast

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...and so the confusion continues.
I need something for the inside bugs, like roaches. From what i've read, this stuff would kill them, it just takes some time. I also live in the south, and the bugs here are year around.
@saroj12 what was you experience!
 

saroj12

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...and so the confusion continues.
I need something for the inside bugs, like roaches. From what i've read, this stuff would kill them, it just takes some time. I also live in the south, and the bugs here are year around.
@saroj12 what was you experience!
I used DE for 3 months in the birdroom in a thick layer along the baseboards. cockroaches mostly vanished except i saw one on the couch one night. anyway after 3 months my purifier got so clogged up it started spewing out DE and every bird had breathing problems. I got the DE removed the next morning and found that on the windowsills there was a thick layer of DE dust. My poor birds had been breathing this for three months!! I was horrified. Luckily no one seems to have suffered anything that i can see. Also the whole 3 months they didn't have breathing problems but judging from the windowsills they were inhaling a little dust everyday. Never again DE here. AIL is working great here. use it sparingly or your nose will start burning. Birds don't react to me spraying their cage wheels with it. There are ants in the bird room but none in the cages. that is my experience.
 

Familyof12

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Thanks @saroj12! I was relying on your expertise on AIL. I've never used it. I thought you may have used DE in the past, but I wasn't sure. I'm glad your birds are all okay for sure!

There are only two ways to kill insects. By outright killing their bodies with force or poison. The neem oil people use in their gardens screw with eating and hormonal cycles of insects so they die from starvation and are unable to breed. That will take some time but it also screws with the hormones of other animals. Especially if birds eat the insects who are covered with neem oil. Deet has ingredients that are supposed to be natural but poisonous to birds. If they lick it off your skin and ingest some, they can get really sick.

I didn't have the dust on the windowsill and I didn't experience my humidifier picking it up nor did my air purifier (I had to clean it more often). Just left it on the bottom on the cage a little at a time and never had any issues. We also keep the window in the birds' room open almost year round. In the winter we blast the indoor portable heater in their room with the humidifier going to keep the temperature and humidity in the condition they are used to. We all have severe allergies in this home. Other than the seasonal ones we get, we have had no issues with DE and our birds are small, except the chickens (6-7 lbs each) and they see an Avian Specialist only for all check ups. They're healthy as can be. My neighbor recently caught a virus similar to West Nile, I didn't know this but he has had it for two years and he experiences severe hardship. We have neighbors who complain about their yards in our neighborhood. We've not had issues except for ants, and we cleared that up quickly.

Just food for thought though, I have tons and tons of lizards, praying mantises, solder flies (I raise these), and I vermiculture all my scraps for my worms. We are diligent that there is no standing water anywhere on the property. We also change the filter out frequently in our pond. We don't have any bugs but we have had our share. We haven't had any issue since I began using DE.
 

Familyof12

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I've gone through now and researched AIL. The ingredients of AIL are Methoprene, Piperonyl Butoxide.

methoprene: Interferes with an insect’s lifecycle and prevents it from reaching maturity or reproducing.[3]. Same as Neem Oil and a lot of insecticides.

Piperonyl Butoxide (works with methoprene to make it stronger) : Disrupts the hormonal cycle of the insect. This is similar to neem oil that also does the same thing. This is highly toxic to bees. This disrupts the endocrine system, which means hormones go off the hook. If sprayed on insects and a bird eats that insect, their endocrine systems could get screwed up which would lead to hormonal disruptions in other animals that eat those insects covered by this compound.

permethrin: Excessive exposure to permethrin can cause nausea, headache, muscle weakness, excessive salivation, shortness of breath, and seizures. Worker exposure to the chemical can be monitored by measurement of the urinary metabolites, while severe overdose may be confirmed by measurement of permethrin in serum or blood plasma.[14]
Permethrin does not present any notable genotoxicity or immunotoxicity in humans and farm animals, but is classified by the EPA as a likely human carcinogen, based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors.[15]

Do a lot of people use this product? Yes. We are only now finding new things about parrots and their life cycles. It was the same for DDT and they made it illegal due to the illnesses causes by this. Now it is legal again. The government doesn't protect consumers until consumers die. Then they jump in.

These chemical compounds, being used to fly pets by airlines, and vets is used as a poison that needs to be researched a little further. It is the safest so far until they do more research. They don't know the long term use of these chemicals together. Most scientific articles say more research needs to be done with these two chemicals combined.

Once again, everyone is different. The context of where we live (California vs. Minnesota) can make a big difference. If you see how these viruses are spread, they are all south. Birds take dirt baths for a reason, even in the wild. It is to get rid of bugs under their feathers and on their skin. I can use DE knowing once they get wet, it is no longer a problem.

With AIL, we don't know the long term affects yet. Just like the Pharma companies, they make painkillers telling everyone it's safe and non-addictive, it wasn't true. I've had a chance to look inside the industry of large corporations and how they run. It is not what we all want to believe. I know this because, I'm in the business of going after companies like this and dealing with deaths after the government said it was safe.

See links below.


Synergism of the IGRs Methoprene and Pyriproxyfen Against Larval Cat Fleas (Siphonaptera: Pulicidae) | Journal of Medical Entomology | Oxford Academic

Don't Fall for This Mistake About Pyriproxyfen in Your Pet's Pest Control
 

zvezdast

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Thank you all for sharing your experiences with these products.
I think I am going to use DE sparingly in the bedrooms only for a while, and see how much it gets stirred up in the air over few weeks. I don't have air purifier.
And I'll apply AIL in the areas with higher traffic.
Hopefully with the outside perimeter treatment, I won't need to use much/often inside.
 

lamagdalena

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Sorry to dig up this old post but to make certain I will be using AIL correctly, I can use it in the bird room right? My bird room is often doors closed so anything I spray will not have natural air flow with open doors or windows. Is that okay? I have not decided between AIL and DE but I am thinking I will try AIL first.
I have a weevil/or tiny bug problem. It is driving me insane. Especially now that its getting warmer where I live, a whole bunch just show up every day.

Is this the AIL everyone buys?

 

zvezdast

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Sorry, didn't see this earlier, haven't been on here much.

Yes, that's it. I actually got the powder form and am mixing it into a sprayer myself.
 
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