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ABV positive, very sick

macawsmom

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I would sure love if you would tell more of your story........did you ever have any go on to pdd? How did you discover they are all ABV positive? .......Yeah, and well all of it that you would care to share really. It seems that you think diet is the most important part of keeping them well?

Do you ever feel like people treat you as "dirty" when they find out the ABV status of your flock?
Do you feel you could ever bring in a new bird? I wonder what rescues think of this situation, as supposedly 33% of captive parrots are positive anyway. so THEY may be sending out positive birds unless they are testing.
Would you like to know what I think or what I know (as in proof)?

I have lost several macaws to the wasting syndrome, that is what it was called in the late 70' and early 80's Macaw Wasting Syndrome. My father was a Veterinarian and so when people had sick and/or dying imported birds guess where they dumped them, well the ones that had a conscience. Many of the 'older' Vets believe that a great number of the birds that died during import and quarantine were due to stress and ABV of one genome type or another. Were my ever diagnosed with PDD absolutely and I will forever believe that is why they were dumped at the my dad's clinic. So the 33% figure that you gave is probably pretty conservative because most of the breeding stock is from imported birds and most likely exposed at either importation or quarantine. So why didn't all of them die? No one knows. Some species respond differently to the avian bornavirus and scientist have identified 7 different genomes of the virus so far. So all of my birds came to me sick, some so much so that they could not perch and were severely dehydrated and emaciated. We struggled with illness off and on for many years then I met Alicia McWatters. Alicia taught me so much, she was a wonderful and inspiring woman. Through what I learned from her and from my own knowledge and research we all changed. We changed our diet, how we ate, what we ate but that isn't all that we changed. How they sleep, how long they sleep, how they are housed, how they are handled, we changed it all. When they first discovered the ABV and then the subsequent tests for it some one remembering my father and our history got in touch with me and asked me if I still had my birds and if they could test them and me being the curious soul that I am I said certainly. All of mine tested positive for the ABV antibodies have they already had it? My father thinks so and I think so. Can they get it again? Probably if they aren't well cared for. Once they were tested and the results came back then came all the questions. I don't have all the answers and I don't believe anyone ever will but it has certainly made quite a number of the Avian Specialist sit up and take notice.

“Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food.” Hippocrates

Now to try and answer your questions.
Do you ever feel like people treat you as "dirty" when they find out the ABV status of your flock? If I didn't tell you, you would never know. They didn't just survive since we changed how we live they have thrived. I understand what you mean the ABV has been called the AIDS of the Avian World. I can tell you that there is no shame in it, people are afraid and unless things change a lot more birds are going to become ill and die. So put your head up and smile and fight with everything that you have! You have to get some nutritious foods with some calories into them they are going to need both of these to fight it.

Do you feel you could ever bring in a new bird? I have never bought any of my birds but if I was given another bird by whatever means, absolutely I would take it and I would do for it and treat it just like my others.

I wonder what rescues think of this situation, as supposedly 33% of captive parrots are positive anyway. so THEY may be sending out positive birds unless they are testing. I can not answer this but I have often wondered it myself. I love the idea of rescues and of fostering but 30 days quarantine is not sufficient when you are talking about ABV.

read this article there has always been proof that what we eat impacts our health http://www.loganmd.com/lectures/LetMedicinebeThyFood_000.pdf
I can not tell you what to do but I know what has worked for me. I know that right now at this moment avian researchers are finally for the first time ever researching what these animals really need. The basis for all pelleted diets is based on poultry research and a limited few independent studies.

NEVER give up!
 

roxynoodle

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What type of tubes does your vet use Audrey? I've only gavage fed by using the extenders on syringes. Its 1-3" and connects onto the syringe. Its a solid piece and if you're holding the syringe a bird shouldn't be able to get it out. Its solid plastic (unflimsy. They even have metal ones. I believe the tubing is called "oral gavage" tubes.

Edit: it doesn't have to be so big that it goes into the crop, only past the wind pipe/beginning of crop. So a 3"gavage tube should suffice or even be more than enough as long as its past the windpipe.
I admit I haven't studied it closely, knowing I don't have the skill to do it, especially by myself with a bird who hates being toweled, like Merlin. But, it appears to be stainless steel and I know it's longer than 2-3". From what they have said it goes all the way into the crop.
 

allison

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There are different sizes for different sized birds. You have to put it in at a slight angle and all the way to their crop. It is something you want your vet to show you and you have to be very careful. It's very easy to aspirate them if you don't do it right.
 

MommyBird

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Macawsmom - I can't argue with you. Sounds like you have great results with returning your sick birds to health!
I think diet is huge, and that any current pellet falls short and should only be a small percentage. I am always looking for articles on how parrots eat in the wild.
And amen to your comment about quarantine for ABV. You can't do it, not when it can hide for a decade or more. There needs to be discussion and education so people aren't paralyzed by fear, and research to get better testing and treating.
Thank-you!
 

webchirp

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:hug8:
 

macawsmom

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Macawsmom - I can't argue with you. Sounds like you have great results with returning your sick birds to health!
I think diet is huge, and that any current pellet falls short and should only be a small percentage. I am always looking for articles on how parrots eat in the wild.
And amen to your comment about quarantine for ABV. You can't do it, not when it can hide for a decade or more. There needs to be discussion and education so people aren't paralyzed by fear, and research to get better testing and treating.
Thank-you!
It has been a week I am wondering how your two little ones are doing and how you are holding up? Are they eating? Are you staying strong?
 

Ziggymon

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Just want to let you know that I continue to think of you and your flock. :hug8:
 

May

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Hi Debbie,
I joined this forum specifically to respond to your thread. I have been dealing with a PDD diagnosis for about 6 weeks now. Great thing your vet gave you Emeraid - it absorbs nutrients through the blood stream and is necessary because with PDD they can't absorb food normally. I have been using Emeraid (and Celebrex) and still fighting this disease. Specifically to your question, I too initially struggled how to get her to eat Emeraid from a syringe. She would not take food from the syringe on my lap - she just wanted to perch on my shoulder. I put a drop of it on my cheek to see if she would taste it, and fortunately, she did and that was the beginning of her allowing me to feed her from the syringe. It's not very comfortable, but I'm getting food in like that (i.e., with her on my shoulder). The taste seems to be pretty appealing to her. Please, keep us posted.
 

May

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Hi Debbie,
I joined this forum specifically to respond to your thread. I have been dealing with a PDD diagnosis for about 6 weeks now. Great thing your vet gave you Emeraid - it absorbs nutrients through the blood stream and is necessary because with PDD they can't absorb food normally. I have been using Emeraid (and Celebrex) and still fighting this disease. Specifically to your question, I too initially struggled how to get her to eat Emeraid from a syringe. She would not take food from the syringe on my lap - she just wanted to perch on my shoulder. I put a drop of it on my cheek to see if she would taste it, and fortunately, she did and that was the beginning of her allowing me to feed her from the syringe. It's not very comfortable, but I'm getting food in like that (i.e., with her on my shoulder). The taste seems to be pretty appealing to her. Please, keep us posted.
I just wanted to add, the Emeraid should stimulate the appetite. With my conure, she won't eat any other food until she's had Emeraid. I believe it enhances the motility. Your vet may give you an oral motility enhancer - metoclopramide (Reglan). If so, please be very careful. I gave this to my bird and it caused involuntary movements, very disturbing. The drug causes movement in the upper intestine to stimulate appetite but, like I said, it can cause very bad side effects. Also, she did not need it because the Emeraid really does the trick well for her in that sense. Also, just to clarify above a bit, after I put the Emeraid on my cheek, I held the syringe close to that spot to try and simulate my feeding her, the way birds do. Feeding in this manner, I've been able to increase her weight from 101g (weight when I brought her in) to 109-111g morning weight (before eating).

This is my first experience in owning a bird so, admittedly, there is so much I don't know, but I'm learning more about what works and what does not everyday. It has been an intense experience to say the least. I will say, the phases so far seem to have gone from in-home I.C.U. to rehab. We are still trying to get the neurological symptoms under control as she has both forms of the disease. It's rough and hopefully you are not having to contend with that part.

A couple of days have gone by since your post so I'm hoping you are able to figure this out soon. It is devastating, I know. Many, many tears have rolled down my face. You are not alone in what you are going through.

*IMPORTANT*
Please private message me. I have someone extremely knowledgeable for you to contact for this issue (she's been researching PDD for 6 years and should have her paper released next week, not to mention, my bird would not be alive today without her help and guidance). She sends the following message:

Feel free to send her my email address. I'll help her as much as I can. She has no choice but to give it to her orally. It's not easy, but it can be done with the right technique.
As I'm new to the forum, I sure would appreciate any help in making sure Debbie gets this message. Thank you!!!
 
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sodakat

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May, you won't be able to receive PMs until you make "x" number of posts and I cannot remember the amount. I think it is at least 10.

So very nice of you to join to help Debbie. I hope you stay with us.
 

May

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May, you won't be able to receive PMs until you make "x" number of posts and I cannot remember the amount. I think it is at least 10.

So very nice of you to join to help Debbie. I hope you stay with us.
Thank you. I better get busy!
 

MommyBird

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Hi everyone, and especially May. I appreciate your efforts to contact me, but I think it is 20 posts that you need to get or send PM's.
Just post some welcomes or dancing bananas in various threads, etc!
I am so sorry that your first venture into birds has been such a difficult one.
I cannot imagine the learning curve you have had, it has been monumental for me.
I would greatly welcome any info that is available.

Some days I am so devastated I just can barely function. Talking to a therapist helps but it doesn't change the reality. I have another appt on Thurs.
I have huge amounts of anxiety about the upstairs flock, who fortunately think it is an exciting game to get weighed (I purchased a second scale for the Amazons), and give me funny looks as I pounce on their poop as it drops. I am not sane anymore and am not going to bother to apologize for it.
Sunny and Jimi are used to sharing a dish at dinnertime and preening each other but I have stopped that and they are not happy about it, Sunny especially.
Then the Amazons will eat a little bit and do some vocalizing or take a bath, or enjoy going outside and I am contented for a bit.
I have always had the bestest conversations with Chico, he is one of a kind.

I haven't really seen much improvement due to the metacam and today is 14 days on it. I have a vet appt Tues AM and I will be asking more questions.
Chico seems to be actually eating less of regular food than before, but he will swallow the emeraid, although only 10 ml in a session then he starts resisting. He will only eat solids if I hand each tiny piece to him and we circle around and around the top of the cage for seemingly endless amounts of time with me trying to convince him to eat. Polly almost never takes anything from a hand but just yesterday seemed to increase eating a bit from her dish. Towelling them is a nightmare, but I am getting faster and still not afraid of bleeding if I must to get them quickly.

Polly is my sweet dear. I always picture her as a tough no-nonsense waitress with a soft heart in a truck stop diner. I did finally have her gavage fed once last week and I think we will do it again this week. I also got a few tips for towelling her and getting the metacam in at least. She has a neck as thick as a linebacker, and I have small hands. She bites the tip off the syringe most times but we manage.
If I give her oatmeal-thick emeraid (Emeraid® Omnivore | Lafeber's Emeraid) she pushes it out with her tongue and wipes it everywhere. If it were not so sad I would laugh at the expression on her face as she makes a face like I have just put a wad of snot into her beak. She gapes her beak and has a very disgusted expression as she lets it drip off the tip. I am now thinning it down a good bit so she can't push it out and I can only get ONE ml into her before she starts "drowning", but it is something. I am hoping I can increase the amount bit by bit eventually as I had to do with Chico.
She will eat a few things, the most likely for her being some safflower seed (yeah, odd) and also only if served around noon. Then they are now accepting very limited amounts of garden green beans and peas, corn on the cob, watermelon, celery, pomegranite seeds (I was so happy when they appeared in the store), blueberries (only if firm so you should see the looks people give me), cherries (but they are over now), raw artichoke hearts and stem, animal crackers, cooked carrots, cooked potato cubes, red bell pepper. Sometime a bite of papaya or banana. Then they refuse things like scrambled egg!!!! That totally threw me for a loop but I will keep offering it. I just keep trying things and their tastes change almost daily.

I too have found that if I can get that first bit of food or Emeraid into them it does seem easier to keep them eating for a bit.
I recently got the Birdsitter DVD and sometimes the sounds and pictures of the birds interacting and eating on there makes them more animated and likely to eat.

Sorry if I rambled a bit here. Someday I hope to have time to post some other thoughts. My flock has always been "what I do" but this has totally consumed me.
 

MommyBird

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Emeraid Omnivore is part of the Critical Care system

Hope this works.

Emeraid Omnivore and the Emeraid Critical Care System: Hand and Gavage Feeding « LafeberVet.com

Look at 3:58 - how to feed a bird

"Put the bird on a table or your lap and gently press on each side of the commissure of the beak to get the bird to bob its head. When the bird bobs its head, it closes the glottis."

Huh, that's interesting, will have to give that a try, especially with Polly. Chico and Polly are older, wild-caught birds who are not really "handle-able". I worked to get them to a point where I could either move them on a stick or by verbal recall to their cages. That seemed enough and I didn't know I'd wish I had done more.
 

Birdlover

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Thank you May for coming here. I switched your usergroup manually so you should be able to PM now :)
 

May

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"Put the bird on a table or your lap and gently press on each side of the commissure of the beak to get the bird to bob its head. When the bird bobs its head, it closes the glottis."

Huh, that's interesting, will have to give that a try, especially with Polly. Chico and Polly are older, wild-caught birds who are not really "handle-able". I worked to get them to a point where I could either move them on a stick or by verbal recall to their cages. That seemed enough and I didn't know I'd wish I had done more.
Debbie, I think you may need to thin it down first because it should not be the consistency of oatmeal. If you are refrigerating and reusing you need to add water to get it to the original consistency. Like pancake batter, but a bit thinner. You should probably make a new batch before trying this technique.
 

MommyBird

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Debbie, I think you may need to thin it down first because it should not be the consistency of oatmeal. If you are refrigerating and reusing you need to add water to get it to the original consistency. Like pancake batter, but a bit thinner. You should probably make a new batch before trying this technique.
The original instructions from the vet when she gave me some without original packaging or instructions were "oatmeal" I have since gotten my own tub with instructions and am making it more according to the recipe. I make it fresh twice a day just before feeding (with a syringe but not gavage)
 
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