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A New Beginning? Hopeful!! <a bit longish>

Merlie

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As many here know, I live with two very "rowdy" Caiques .. Ayeko <male>, and Enki <female>. They are siblings, will be four this October, and have been together since birth.

In the early years, A & E were quite easy, and got along with my other birds. However, as they matured, their dislike for other birds around them became stronger and stronger, to the point where I had to move them to an area that had very limited access from the other birds. I made adjustments in my home to accommodate their needs <basically, gave up my dining room .. lol> and dealt with this issue in the safest way I could. It was, and still is, a bit of pain ... as I must always be aware of who is out and their proximity to the Cakes .. even if the Cakes are in their cage. While my larger birds are not so much at risk, A & E, .. mostly Ayeko, have very little fear of birds even 10 times their size and have been brain damaged enough to challenge my larger Macs.

So .. I figured, okay, this is part of owning Cakes. I knew they could be bird aggressive .. it's noted in just about everything you read about them. I truly did try to work with the issue, for well over a year, but .. I failed. They just could not be out with the others, esp. anyone their size or smaller. Ayeko isn't fooling .. and I have absolutely no doubt he would kill any bird his size, or smaller. No doubt at all. I was quite sad about it, and felt like a failure, esp. knowing that there were many people who had Cakes that got along just fine with other birds. I just didn't get the lucky "gene pool" with my Cakes .. lol.

Then, about a year ago, I entered a new phase with Ayeko and Enki. Actually, I lump poor Enki in with Ayeko .. mostly the issues are with Ayeko .. my little demon. Enki is actually quite sweet, but she will follow Ayeko's lead.

The new phase was even more daunting than the bird aggression. Ayeko went into full sociopath mode. Seriously, he decided that, for the most part, I should die a slow and painful death, he wanted to dance on my dead body and eat my eyeballs. It WAS that bad. Oh, he had his good days, but they were few and far between. He would lunge himself at whatever side of the cage I approached from to get me. He would aggressively dive bomb me from his playstands, boings, atoms .. you name it. I actually took to constantly walking around with a pillow or magazine to ward him off.

Now, when I say dive bomb, I don't mean just take fly byes at me, I mean .. latch onto my head, neck, shoulders .. etc., and attack .. viscously. This went on for months until one day, he caught me off guard, with no pillow, no magazine, nothing ... and really got me good. Bites to my neck, chin, ear, nose, eye and shoulders .. all with lightening speed. Not little nips, these were deep nasty bites. We won't even talk about the bites I got trying to get him off of me. It was scary .. really scary, to have this bird who really seemed to just lose his mind like that. I was shaken, scared and most of all .. really, really MAD!! This bird, who I spent hours cooking for, shopping for, cleaning up after, giving him everything I could think of to make his life happy and fulfilling .. had just viscously attacked me for no reason at all.

Now, before everyone gets all "oh, what were the triggers, something was a trigger" .. please .. save the positive reinforcement/trigger theory for some other type of bird .. I'm not a birdie novice, I know all about triggers, and reinforcing good behaviors .. blah, blah, blah, blah. I tried every solution in the book, on the web, in Caique forums .. etc., etc., etc. You name it, I tried it. Moving cages, moving playstands, changing diets, separating them .. all of it. Remember, I'm not talking about a few months of this, I'm talking just over a year.

Anyway, that day .. after the attack, I knew I had had enough. I will take A LOT from my birds, will sacrifice a lot, do everything and anything in my power to give them the best lives I possibly can. However .. I will NOT tolerate a bird who wants to attack my face .. that is my line in the sand. Bite my hands, arms, feet .. whatever .. but .. going after my face/head .. consistently ... I could not have. I'm no beauty queen to begin with, however, I still like my lips, ears, nose, eyes more or less attached to my body and without major damage. The day of the attack, he got the corner of my eye .. another 1/4" inch, and he could have done some serious and lasting damage.

So, I did what I had been thinking of doing, but held off. I clipped his wings. It was the one solution I didn't really want to try, but .. felt at this point, I had to do. I could not have this bird flying at me all the time. I was not so much afraid of him, but of what I might do. I'm only human, and when you're being attacked, certain self preservation reactions come into play. I'll be honest .. I really did want to drop kick his feathered butt across the room that day. Those who say "Oh, don't react, they live for the reaction" .. yeah, well, you guys go with that .. good luck .. I'll send Ayeko to you for a flying facial attack and see if you don't react!!

Yep, I clipped him that day. Figuring that it would at least allow me to walk around my own home without being disfigured for life ... and it would allow Ayeko to continue living here, and not end up on the BBQ for dinner.

Well, Cakes are stubborn little monsters, and while the clipping made things a bit easier .. he still didn't give up. Have I mentioned how far a Cake can leap off of something when they are determined? Strong legs those suckers have. Ayeko could enter the birdie Olympics with his long jump, I'm serious .. he had it mastered and would launch himself at me from across the room constantly. If he missed, he'd just do his PO'd Cake hop across the floor to attack my feet. Gotta say, although I didn't want to encourage it .. it was very funny to watch. Needless to say, going barefoot was never an option if Ayeko was out!

So, we continued on this path for several months. I just gave Ayeko a wide berth .. and was careful around the Cake cage .. he also went thru a phase of not wanting me to touch the cage .. that was fun too .. always having to move them far, far away from their cage just to clean it, or even put food/water in it .. yeah, lots and lots of fun with that.

I started thinking that if he was a human child with these type of tantrums and attitudes, that he'd be put on some type of medication or something. I really felt I had a chemically imbalanced Caique .. something in his brain just wasn't wired right. Enki wasn't like this at all. She remained sweet and easy to handle. I'm not a fan of "big pharma" at all .. I believe too many "problems" in people's lives are just pill popped away, but really, that's just putting band-aids over bullet holes, masking the issues, but not actually solving anything. However, as much as I'm against medicating for certain issues, I started to look into anything that might help Ayeko with his craziness. I wanted my nice bird back, I wanted us to live out our lives together without all this aggression, fear, worry, resentment .. you name it.

Ayeko is stubborn, but .. I'm even more so. I made a commitment to him and I wasn't going to give up until I had exhausted every single resource at my disposal. Trust me, in my head, the nasty "R" word went around and around. I thought about it, I really did. How much easier my life would be without the Cakes, specifically Ayeko. No dive bombing, no launching attacks, being able to have the other birds out in the same area without as much fear and worry. However, what would rehoming him solve really? He'd become someone else's problem, perhaps someone who wasn't as tolerant <or as much of a glutton for punishment> as I am. What would happen to him, given his personality? I couldn't even imagine it .. what might happen to him. Yes, there was a chance he just hated me, and might love someone else .. but .. that was just a rationale, something fleeting I thought to myself .. "Oh, he might be so much happier someplace else, with someone else". I couldn't risk it though. As much as he drove me up a wall and made me furious with his actions, I loved the little monster.

So, I starting looking into supplements that might help with his overactive hatred of me. My first go to was Avi-Calm .. a bit sprinkled on his foods and a bit sprinkled in his water. I had nothing to lose, and didn't see anything in the product that was harmful. It took about six/eight weeks, but I did start seeing an easing up of the kill mode. I also looked into herbal teas .. specifically ones that Jason Crean is working with. He had a tea blend that had some success with calming feather pluckers/mutilators .. I had purchased it for Tikki .. and figured, why not try a bit with Ayeko. So a bit of herbal tea daily was added as well.

It's been about 3 months now with this new protocol, just a light sprinkle of Avi-Calm in the food, and a splash of herbal tea in the water bowl, and I must say, there have been no real attacks. Ayeko is still a crazy Cake .. and has his moods of course, but he is no where near as aggressive towards me as he once was. He hasn't launched himself at me for no good reason .. <all bets are off if I'm on the phone, he'll try to kill if he sees the phone>. I can touch his cage without problem, I can actually get him to step up to my hand without risking an ER trip. I still have to watch his body language of course, but now it's no different than watching any of my other birds for signs of "trouble". I'm quite happy with the progress and tentative peace we seem to have at the moment.

My next step is going to be the much talked about essential oils <bird safe>, that Dr. Melissa Shelton will be lecturing about at TASC, truly fascinating stuff there, and something I'll definitely be investing in, in the near future. I've ordered her new book as a start, but can't want to hear her speak about her findings on these oils and their properties.

So hear I am .. at the near end of this very long story. My "solutions" haven't solved the bird aggression issue, but I truly don't think anything is going to "solve" that issue, it is what it is, Cakes are known for it, and that part, I can deal with.

I've been thinking of how and when to make this thread for a while now. I know there are many who may not agree with my actions/reactions/solutions .. etc., and that's okay, nobody has to agree with me .. we all do what we do with our flocks to make things work in our own, personal way. I'm just sharing my experience, take it as you will. I thought, Easter Sunday was a good time to post this .. spring .. new beginnings .. that whole angle.

Take from my ongoing journey what you will. I hope that one day, soon, Ayeko won't "need" the supplements, and perhaps all of this nonsense was just a growing up/hormonal phase, which, all said and done, I believe it is, just a very severe one. Most Cakes get rehomed at around the 5 year mark .. seems to be the onset of the "bad times". I'm going push thru it with him, we're both just too stubborn to give up on each other .. lol .. besides, I do love my little beasty boy! :heart:

.... End of very, very long story :rolleyes: ...
 

April

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Sounds to me like you did the best thing you could for him. I'm glad the attacks have stopped,I can't even imagine having a bird attacking your face like that.
 

Deejo

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What an informative & thought provoking journey!
I was reading, hanging off every word...and kept going back to a conversation I had just yesterday!
My best friend was here; she is not a bird person, but she is an animal lover. She's also very knowledgeable about 'holistic' care as it
applies to people & pets.
I was telling her about the essential oil (diffusing) methods that many are trying with their parrots.
As she said, aromatherapy is thousands of years old. (everything old is new again, lol)
She told me about her recent hike part way up a mountain - the scent of various newly blooming wild flowers - and how as soon as that aroma filled the air,
she felt invigorated, yet calm and a sense of pure joy. Can we (and our pets?) get that same experience from a bottle? Apparently we can.

You are obviously on the right track with the tea, etc, it's working for Ayeko! The addition of EO diffusing if you decide to go that route, and your findings/observations about its' use, will be great information for others.

Amazing...the entire story of Ayeko......speaks volumes about YOU and the lengths you went to in solving a serious problem where others would have given up long ago.
Best of luck, and I will be very interested in updates!
 

Katster

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Gosh I just went throuh read this all and thought of giving you (((hugs))). I am glad that things are starting to improve a lil.

Good luck.
 
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Anne & Gang

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I cannot tell you how much I respect and admire you in general and that has just been reinforced by reading this very interesting and thoughtful explanation of your dealings with your caigues. You were honest in your feelings and even admitted you briefly thought of the R word...That you did not do that and sought other solutions just shows what a truly wonderful and caring person you are. So many others would have simply given up. Those caiques are lucky to have you and I am so glad that the solutions you came up with seem to be working.
 

Mythreeiggys

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You are doing what's best for you and him and it sounds as though you've made great strides! I'm going through the same thing with one of my GCC's right now. In the past week, he's attached himself to my face more then enough times and it is SCARY! He literally hates me. Anyone else can walk into the bird room and he is fine but if it's me...he's on a mission. I just wonder what makes them hate certain people? I too have never ever done anything to him to make him hate me except provide the best for him.

So great to hear you are Ayeko and making friends :)
 

allison

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For those psycho birds at the rescue (or the extremely fearful) we use Chlomicalm (chlomipramine) or Amitryptaline. My friend has a phobic RB2 that has shown so much improovement after starting Chlomicalm. I can see the aggression in the birds at the rescue down significantly for a few hours after they eat their meds. We give it to them on zucchini or pumpkin bread.
 

Shade

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Hmm..might want to try that Avi-Calm and tea with Petey...will PM you for more details!
 

Bokkapooh

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I'm glad the Avicalm is working. I won't say that for most PAIRS of birds, they become territorial and aggressive and "attack out of nowhere", as I know you know this. Reading your post shows how thin of a string you are on. I hope the Avicalm continues to help and perhaps now is a good time to Target train him and do some real behavioral modification. Good luck :)
 

Ziggymon

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I second what Anne and Deejo said.
 

Birdasaurus

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Merlie, there is also a calming herbal spray that can be used around birds...I can't think if the name of it right now, but I'm sure we could google it and find it. My vet (who practices a mix of traditional and holistic) used it on Tango quite often when he'd get wild-eyed after an appointment. That might be something to look into so it can be used when he's in his moods so you eventually don't have to give him daily supplements.
 

Bunnygirl

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:hug8: I really admire your perserverance throughout all this. With Crash, I've gotten a crash-course in how much of a pain Cakes can be. I can't have him around when my brother visits from college (it's a two-way hateful relationship, and I don't want either of them hurting the other...Crash has already made his mark there and I'm woried that some day, my brother will react too bad and hurt Crash too). He used to be really good around kids but that stopped a while back and it got to the point where he could only be out when there were no visiters around. We had a family over that hasn't been over for probably at least a year, and he behaved wonderfully and was able to be out with the kids no problem. However, that is not what we're used to. I've started taking him to a different room when visiters come and I hate it. Crash has always been really good to me (he has his days when he's in a bad or nippy mood, but over all, he's my bud) but there are days when I'm pretty much the only person who can hold him (although part of that is because I personally know how to handle him better). I honestly can't say what I'd end up doing in your situation. I love Crash but there are times that I find myself wondering if adding him to my family was a good idea. I'd be afraid that if he got into a mood like that for an extended period of time, I'd crack. Thank you for shairing this. It's very encouraging. Keep doing what your doing and don't give up on him. :hug8:
 

Saemma

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:eek: No idea you've been going through your own litte *hellish time*:(:hug8:
 

kastelling

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:hug8: Congrats Merlie!! Good job on the perseverance! I know what monsters these cakes can be. I hope the positive changes continue for you!
 

Merlie

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What an informative & thought provoking journey!
I was reading, hanging off every word...and kept going back to a conversation I had just yesterday!
My best friend was here; she is not a bird person, but she is an animal lover. She's also very knowledgeable about 'holistic' care as it
applies to people & pets.
I was telling her about the essential oil (diffusing) methods that many are trying with their parrots.
As she said, aromatherapy is thousands of years old. (everything old is new again, lol)
She told me about her recent hike part way up a mountain - the scent of various newly blooming wild flowers - and how as soon as that aroma filled the air,
she felt invigorated, yet calm and a sense of pure joy. Can we (and our pets?) get that same experience from a bottle? Apparently we can.

You are obviously on the right track with the tea, etc, it's working for Ayeko! The addition of EO diffusing if you decide to go that route, and your findings/observations about its' use, will be great information for others.

Amazing...the entire story of Ayeko......speaks volumes about YOU and the lengths you went to in solving a serious problem where others would have given up long ago.
Best of luck, and I will be very interested in updates!
Thank you. I will update as things change/progress. I have very high hopes for the EO diffusing. I think there is quite a bit of benefit to trying them out for many different things.


Gosh I just went throuh read this all and thought of giving you (((hugs))). I am glad that things are starting to improve a lil.

Good luck.
Thank you for the hugs!


I cannot tell you how much I respect and admire you in general and that has just been reinforced by reading this very interesting and thoughtful explanation of your dealings with your caigues. You were honest in your feelings and even admitted you briefly thought of the R word...That you did not do that and sought other solutions just shows what a truly wonderful and caring person you are. So many others would have simply given up. Those caiques are lucky to have you and I am so glad that the solutions you came up with seem to be working.
Thank you Anne ..

Don't know that I'm all the "wonderful" .. just stubborn is all. "Drugging" my bird, which is kinda what I'm doing, isn't the best solution, but it was the one that worked. Yep, I gave a lot of thought to finding him a new home, absolutely did, but again, then he would have been someone else's naughty problem, not something I'd wish on even my worse enemy.



You are doing what's best for you and him and it sounds as though you've made great strides! I'm going through the same thing with one of my GCC's right now. In the past week, he's attached himself to my face more then enough times and it is SCARY! He literally hates me. Anyone else can walk into the bird room and he is fine but if it's me...he's on a mission. I just wonder what makes them hate certain people? I too have never ever done anything to him to make him hate me except provide the best for him.

So great to hear you are Ayeko and making friends :)
Good luck with your situation .. I can so totally relate. It's so hard to think that a bird could "hate", and have always thought we apply too many human feelings to our companion parrots, but .. whatever your little guy is feeling, and whatever Ayeko was feeling .. certainly wasn't love or affection.



Hmm..might want to try that Avi-Calm and tea with Petey...will PM you for more details!
Responded!!

I'm glad the Avicalm is working. I won't say that for most PAIRS of birds, they become territorial and aggressive and "attack out of nowhere", as I know you know this. Reading your post shows how thin of a string you are on. I hope the Avicalm continues to help and perhaps now is a good time to Target train him and do some real behavioral modification. Good luck :)
Not sure what you mean by "real" behavioral modifications. I tried clicker/target training for almost 8 months .. Ayeko wanted to eat the target, the clicker, then me .. and often .. it was me first. I feel that maturity and hormones really hit him hard .. and he's acting out. No amount of psycho therapy seemed to help. I think there are a few birds out there, who .. like people, need some type of medication to help with "imbalances". Again, I say FEW .. as I believe we as a nation rely too heavily on big pharma to solve problems with pills and such. I don't subscribe to that philosophy in general, but I believe there is a tiny minority of people and pets that do benefit from "balancing" medications. Ayeko is perhaps in that minority .. who knows .. but I do know that I have bird who isn't at risk to me or his own well being anymore, and I can live with my version of behavioral modification without any problem at all.


Beautifully written as usual :hug8::hug8::hug8: You stubborn? No way :D:lol::rofl:
Thanks T .. I know it was way too long, but sometimes .. taking short cuts doesn't work. On the stubborn thing .. takes one to know one!!


Merlie, there is also a calming herbal spray that can be used around birds...I can't think if the name of it right now, but I'm sure we could google it and find it. My vet (who practices a mix of traditional and holistic) used it on Tango quite often when he'd get wild-eyed after an appointment. That might be something to look into so it can be used when he's in his moods so you eventually don't have to give him daily supplements.
Sounds very interesting. My hopeful goal is to take him off of things slowly but surely and see where behavior changes occur, if they do. I'm not at all interested in keeping him "drugged" forever .. but .. I am interested in keeping my face intact. I'm truly hoping that diffusing with EO is going to replace at least the Avi Calm. I don't mind the herbal teas, but I'm not comfortable with constant dosing of anything.


:hug8: I really admire your perserverance throughout all this. With Crash, I've gotten a crash-course in how much of a pain Cakes can be. I can't have him around when my brother visits from college (it's a two-way hateful relationship, and I don't want either of them hurting the other...Crash has already made his mark there and I'm woried that some day, my brother will react too bad and hurt Crash too). He used to be really good around kids but that stopped a while back and it got to the point where he could only be out when there were no visiters around. We had a family over that hasn't been over for probably at least a year, and he behaved wonderfully and was able to be out with the kids no problem. However, that is not what we're used to. I've started taking him to a different room when visiters come and I hate it. Crash has always been really good to me (he has his days when he's in a bad or nippy mood, but over all, he's my bud) but there are days when I'm pretty much the only person who can hold him (although part of that is because I personally know how to handle him better). I honestly can't say what I'd end up doing in your situation. I love Crash but there are times that I find myself wondering if adding him to my family was a good idea. I'd be afraid that if he got into a mood like that for an extended period of time, I'd crack. Thank you for shairing this. It's very encouraging. Keep doing what your doing and don't give up on him. :hug8:
Cakes are a whole different world. Unless you've lived with one, it's really hard to describe, they're not like other parrots at all, and I own a diverse enough flock to say that with confidence. They have this internal on/off switch of some kind that has no rhyme or reason. It can make for challenging times.

:eek: No idea you've been going through your own litte *hellish time*:(:hug8:
It's been trying, but we're coming out of it now, at least I hope we are. There was no point in me slobbering boo-hoos about Ayeko all over the forum, it was something only I could work thru, and I knew too much info, too much advice, would just make my head spin. I had to find my own way on this journey.


:hug8: Congrats Merlie!! Good job on the perseverance! I know what monsters these cakes can be. I hope the positive changes continue for you!
Thank you .. a bit early for congrats yet, but .. things are decidedly better, and I'll take "better" and run with it!!!
 

saroj12

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BraveheartDogs

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I can understand your frustration with your situation but I am not sure why this post was written defensively when no one had even given you any suggestions or solutions. I just thought that was odd. When doing a functional analysis of why an animal does something we do need to figure out what the antecedent or trigger is. There is always an antecedent, so while you may have not been able to identify it, please don't think that it isn't there. It is, behavior doesn't happen without it. It sounds like the trigger is humans or the humans who the bird is biting. I'm sorry, but learning theory is true for all species of animals, not all species except for Caiques. I am not saying that they aren't challenging, just that they still learn the way other animals do.

I think it is great that you found a solution and I don't think that using drugs or supplements is a bad thing. I have client dogs that are on drugs for their anxiety, fear, aggression etc, because they cannot function without it. The problem, to me, is when people just want to give drugs without doing anything else. In other words, they just want a pill to make it all better, and there isn't a pill for that obviously. Trying a lot of things and then deciding to try supplements is not a bad thing. Sometimes supplements or drugs just help to the extent that the animal can think and learn. It sounds like you are doing things right and that is trying it and measuring the change in behavior.

I also don't think that clipping is a horrible idea. Again, all you can do is try it and then measure the results.

I agree with Mercedes that now that you have taken the edge off it makes sense to try some training again. Now that he is more relaxed and less aggressive, you may be able to train some behaviors and also rebuild your relationship with him.


Now, before everyone gets all "oh, what were the triggers, something was a trigger" .. please .. save the positive reinforcement/trigger theory for some other type of bird .. I'm not a birdie novice, I know all about triggers, and reinforcing good behaviors .. blah, blah, blah, blah. I tried every solution in the book, on the web, in Caique forums .. etc., etc., etc. You name it, I tried it. Moving cages, moving playstands, changing diets, separating them .. all of it. Remember, I'm not talking about a few months of this, I'm talking just over a year.

...
 

magni

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Sending lots of HUGS, I know they can be really hard to deal with. Your a special lady:hug8::hug8::hug8::hug8:
 

rockoko

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:eek: wow!!! All my best for continued improvement!!!
 
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