It's the perfect training tool

[Farlie]

When Farlie gets caught doing something he's not supposed to be doing I try to reprimand or 'train' him not to do it again.
OK, so I caught him in the act and swatted the back of my leather chair with a flyswatter that made a very LOUD crack right next to where he was doing it and man, he SCREAMED and took off like a jack rabbit. Now, as I raised the swatter back up into the air to swat the chair again, Farlie and the swatter briefly met in mid air by accident and he SCREAMED again and flew straight to his cage and up into bed. I also shouted loudly, "NO NO. That's a no no!"
That mid air meeting did it. He is now deathly afraid of that orange flyswatter. When he does wrong all I have to do is reach for it now and he takes off straight to his bed. I've finely gotten his attention. It's amazing how well it's working.
I've gotten after him for poopin' on me.
I've gotten after him for chewing on my leather chair.
I've gotten after him for walking on the floor.
And slowly it's finely sinking in that he shouldn't be doing stuff he's not supposed to be doing. He's never paid any attention to me in the past but now he listens to my reprimands and stops what ever it is when I say, "NO NO, stop that!"
I don't want him on the floor cuz the management sprays each apartment with bug spray once a month.
I don't want him chewing up the bead on my leather chair!
I don't want him poopin' on me.
It's finely working. If I even reach for the swatter now he'll SCREAM and fly straight to his bed.
I've never hit him or hurt him but only put the fear of 'Rick' into him with the perfect 'training' tool. LOL
He's beginning to see the light.

 

[Lupen]

Zephyr is afraid of my back scratcher as well, I've never hit him of course, but now it’s become a thing where if he’s chewing something I don’t want him to I tell him I’ll get the stick. He will immediately start climbing down albeit reluctantly, lol. I don’t like using “fear” or what not but it’s more of a game than anything now.

And due to that fear being gone and the game it’s become he sometimes gets cocky and tries to battle said stick... half the time when I’m just trying to use it for it’s intended purpose... Plenty of better sticks to chew tyvm.

 

[JLcribber]

Punishment and threats work for a while because it works for the people. The bird only learns to be scared.

Discipline/punishment. Just bad advice. | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

 

[Karen]

When Farlie gets caught doing something he's not supposed to be doing I try to reprimand or 'train' him not to do it again.
OK, so I caught him in the act and swatted the back of my leather chair with a flyswatter that made a very LOUD crack right next to where he was doing it and man, he SCREAMED and took off like a jack rabbit. Now, as I raised the swatter back up into the air to swat the chair again, Farlie and the swatter briefly met in mid air by accident and he SCREAMED again and flew straight to his cage and up into bed. I also shouted loudly, "NO NO. That's a no no!"
That mid air meeting did it. He is now deathly afraid of that orange flyswatter. When he does wrong all I have to do is reach for it now and he takes off straight to his bed. I've finely gotten his attention. It's amazing how well it's working.
I've gotten after him for poopin' on me.
I've gotten after him for chewing on my leather chair.
I've gotten after him for walking on the floor.
And slowly it's finely sinking in that he shouldn't be doing stuff he's not supposed to be doing. He's never paid any attention to me in the past but now he listens to my reprimands and stops what ever it is when I say, "NO NO, stop that!"
I don't want him on the floor cuz the management sprays each apartment with bug spray once a month.
I don't want him chewing up the bead on my leather chair!
I don't want him poopin' on me.
It's finely working. If I even reach for the swatter now he'll SCREAM and fly straight to his bed.
I've never hit him or hurt him but only put the fear of 'Rick' into him with the perfect 'training' tool. LOL
He's beginning to see the light.

This is so sad and terribly wrong.

 

[Farlie]

It's working for me and Farlie.
He's doing just fine.

I also believe in spanking children when they're bad. I was whipped with a belt when I was young and made to stand against the fridge so I couldn't run or jump from it.
It straightened me out a number of times as an adolescent. OUCH!

There happens to be an 'Ignore' button here. Just click it...

 

[T. gillii]

Negative reinforcement before positive? Big yikes. There happens to be something called listening to people with more experience here... just try it

 

[T. gillii]

He’s a bird. He’ll be destructive. The way ur punishing normal behavior instead of redirecting it is concerning

 

[Lupen]

I know recent replies weren’t aimed specifically at me but I posted my reply late last night and didn’t realize how it could have come across; just wanted to clarify and make sure it doesn’t sound like I’m punishing or abusing and actually waving it around / hitting him. It’s purely verbal now and just makes it easier to quickly grab his attention and stop him so I can move him/redirect him to a toy nearby. Since he always has to find the one thing to chew in the room that’s off limits as birds often do... Which were the blinds in the old house; thank god none in the new one.

Definitely agree to listening to the people with more experience here ... I’m still learning new things and what I can do better every day.

 

[Karen]

There happens to be an 'Ignore' button here. Just click it...

I will never ignore speaking up on behalf of any bird when I see someone posting and laughing about scaring a bird repeatedly in the manner you describe.

I’m speaking up so that anyone that will ever read this thread will know this is unacceptable treatment.

There are many good threads, posts and links on this board about positive teaching methods along with many posts that describe a parrots natural habits and the tolerance we should have when dealing with them.

 

[Shezbug]

I found this heartbreaking to read to be honest.
I really feel terribly sad for Farlie in this whole scenario.

I don’t want holes in every piece of my clothing (Burt has full access to my wardrobe as it’s open racks at the moment so of course everything has holes in it lol) but I also would prefer he learn things in a positive way so I’ll happily wear holes in everything till he learns there are higher rewards to be gained for not redesigning my clothing. Same goes for my curtains, bedding, shoes, bags, furniture etc. Very slowly he is stopping all of the unwanted behaviours (unwanted by me) because he is choosing to let them be beaten/replaced by a wanted behaviour (wanted by me) which gets him a much better reward and in turn seems to increase our bond and understanding of boundaries and respect for each other.
The description you give of Farlies reaction to the fly swatter reminds me of the first few times Burt saw many different house cleaning tools (vac, mop, cob web brush etc) and it broke my heart to see how deathly afraid, uncomfortable and confused he was of these things, I wanted nothing more than to teach him that whatever I was holding or using was safe as I would never wish for him to have an unnecessary fear of usual house hold items nor me and my behaviour.

I’m sorry Rick, I honestly don’t mean to put you down or be rude so please don’t take it that way....I just really am very surprised that you are happy that Farlie is so terrified of something and that you would use it against him instead of increasing his knowledge of acceptable actions/activities.
Yes, it’s each to ones own in regards to training, care, environment choices etc but this really makes me sad for both you and Farlie.

 

[Farlie]

I didn't come here for approval but rather to share my experiences. And that's what I've been doing. If you don't like it don't follow me.
I don't approve of the foul language and of using the Lords name in vane around here but I haven't complained. I just use the 'Ignore' button on those ignorant individuals is all and don't make comments. If you don't have something nice to say then keep it to yourselves.

 

[M&M Ninja]

I'm glad you have figured out a way to communicate about things that could potentially be dangerous (i.e. chemical carpet). It sounds like Farlie is out with you a lot and has a pretty good bird life.

Growing up, my dad 'trained' our dog by smashing his poor little nose into the carpet where he had recently peed. Once I was older and I had a puppy of my own, I did it too. But just once. I intuitively felt something wasn't right about it and that there had to be another way. Lo and behold, if I just kept an eye on the little fluff ball, I would catch his cues about when he needed to pee. Such relief for us both when I figured out his form of communication.

You are clearly modifying Farlie's behavior with the big orange monster. And since modifying the behavior is the goal, your system is 'working'. But if you ever want to try something that doesn't involve fear, there are other ways.

Reading body language and using positive reinforcement are not intuitive. Probably because human parents tend to punish, not positively reinforce. It takes more work at first, but ultimately leads to an easier way to interact with your parrot. If you can beat him to the punch with those things you don't like (which is where the work comes in) by recalling, redirecting, or placing him, then he'll learn that other behaviors not only avoid the orange monster, but are accompanied by a treat.

The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell changed my life when I began dog training. I highly recommend it to anybody interested in improving their relationship with their pets.

 

[CrazyBirdChick]

I'm sad to read this too. I get very frustrated with Blu sometimes so I understand that parrots can drive us mad but some of the things you are reprimanding him for are just natural things - pooping, walking on the floor. He doesn't understand why you are reprimanding him. I fear that this will backfire on you and either make him bite more, scream more, pluck, or just turn into a terrified and depressed bird.

 

[TikkiTembo]

I get SO incredibly frustrated and sad when Tikki refuses to go in his cage, and sometimes I end up toweling him, which some people disagree with. Some things just aren't negotiable, like going in the cage, or not chewing cords, etc, but some behaviors are normal and shouldn't be punished for. I've still got a long way to go on positive reinforcement...Do what works for you, but don't forget that these little ones are our companions, and they rely on us for love, food, and safety. I'd hate for Tikki to think he wasn't safe with me. We're all they have. Sending good vibes to you and Farlie

 

[Fuzzy]

Using punishment like that does work (or else we wouldn't use punishment), but do you really want to be pairing yourself with an aversive? He is now deathly afraid of the fly swatter and it in turn is paired with you. You have worked so brilliantly at gaining Farlie's trust, but using aversives is a sure fire way to begin to erode that trust.... sometimes with phobic consequences.

 

[BeanieofJustice]

I get SO incredibly frustrated and sad when Tikki refuses to go in his cage, and sometimes I end up toweling him, which some people disagree with. Some things just aren't negotiable, like going in the cage, or not chewing cords, etc, but some behaviors are normal and shouldn't be punished for. I've still got a long way to go on positive reinforcement...Do what works for you, but don't forget that these little ones are our companions, and they rely on us for love, food, and safety. I'd hate for Tikki to think he wasn't safe with me. We're all they have. Sending good vibes to you and Farlie

I have to towel Sam to go to the vet. He's still leery of sticks and stepping up is scary to him. I understand, it's certainly not the best way of doing things, nor what we'd like to do but it's better than the alternative. We're working on it but there's a lot more to unpack. I'm grateful that Sam doesn't hold it against me but, like Tikki, at this moment, it's the best way of safely doing it.

To the larger matter at hand, I don't wish to insult anyone here but, I saw punishment used on Sam. He was a shell of a bird. Terrified of everything. I wouldn't want to treat another soul that way. And I would never want one of my animals to feel that way with me. Reading this made me want to act emotionally, to say something but I realize that that is not practical. So. Instead, I'll approach it with offering this.

Behavioral studies have shown that punishment, be it "positive" (giving something unwanted) or "negative" (taking away something pleasurable) is not as effective as reinforcement. It's also a less conducive environment for learning. Learned helplessness isn't a happy way for anyone to be. Training works the same regardless of species; human, dog, horse, cat, you name it.

Here is an excellent article about it; How Fear-Based Training Can Scar a Dog for Life and What are the Implications of Using Training Techniques Which Induce Fear or Pain in Dogs?

 

[EkkieLu]

Lucy is the only one I towel, and only to go to the vet. I do my best to never scare or frighten them in any way. Ive found bribery and yummy rewards always to be the best. Don't get me wrong, if they were ever in danger I would act quickly and appropriately. But the "things" in my home will never be worth scaring or possibly hurting my babies.

 

[M&M Ninja]

Behavioral studies have shown that punishment, be it "positive" (giving something unwanted) or "negative" (taking away something pleasurable) is not as effective as reinforcement.

Thanks Steph for the reminder of these training terms. Their differences can seem subtle on the surface but are hugely different in their effect.

 

[MommyBird]

OK, so you didn't know any better. now you do. stop it.

Susan Friedman is science-based and tops in my book. Her parrot behavior writings are at Written Works: Learning and Behavior - BehaviorWorks.com
Everyone should read them annually.
This below from http://www.behaviorworks.org/files/articles/The Facts About Punishment 2001.pdf

Some people argue for the use of aversive punishment on the basis of its effectiveness; however, serious problems are likely to arise from the use of aversive strategies even in cases of short-term or narrowly defined success. For reasons explained below, no form of punishment that includes the presentation of aversive consequences should be used with companion parrots at anytime ... ever. It is not only unnecessary but also harmful. If you apply only one fact about punishment to teaching your parrot, let this be the one.

..........Research on the effects of aversive punishment is not new nor has it been narrowly investigated. On the contrary, this research spans many decades and has been replicated with many different species of animals, including humans. Although there is some variability in the way researchers describe their results, the fact is there is a pattern of negative reactions or "side effects" that are consistently observed in many subjects who have been punished with aversive consequences......

Based on these scientific facts, there is no justification for using aversive punishment with our birds. There are no long-term benefits, and the costs are grave. Ironically, it is the short-term effect of punishment that keeps so many of us using it. Every time an animal responds to punishment by doing something less often, the person who delivered the punishment is rewarded......

Whatever we call ourselves in reference to our parrots, be it pet owner, caretaker, parent or guardian, we are all teachers in the most fundamental sense. Each and every moment spent with our birds is a moment that teaches them something about living with humans. In the perpetual role of teacher, we should borrow the physicians' guiding principle: First do no harm. We have learned from years of empirical study over hundreds of scientific experiments that in fact aversive punishment does do harm.

 

[Monica]

I must agree with others in that I find this post really sad. I would never want to put a bird in that situation, in fact, I would rather remove the bird than having them remain living in fear.

My sister and I were both spanked as kids. My sister and I also had belts taken to our behinds. We were ridiculed and put down. We were told we could do something, we did it, then we were called inconsiderate. We were KIDS! Instead of teaching us how to behave, we were punished and shamed. We now live with the consequences our upbringing has done to us. Growing up, I always thought my sister was more resilient... I was a difficult child, which many people find surprising! As an adult? Somehow I ended up being the more 'well rounded' of us two.

If you feel that abuse of a minor is considered fine because it worked for you when you were a child, then clearly that's the issue.


I honestly hope that you are willing to change how you work with Farlie so you can become a better human and a better companion to your bird. If you aren't willing to change, then I hope you rehome Farlie and any other animals you may have. They don't deserve to live in fear of doing wrong and simply giving up. That is, they don't do anything at all because they only know that whatever they do will result in being punished.


Me personally? I'd rather have a bird that *CHOOSES* to do a behavior because they find it rewarding. I do not clip and I find it amazing when a bird *CHOOSES* to fly to me. Heck, I even have a *WILD CAUGHT* bird. I allowed her flights to grow out and she *CHOSE* to come to me on her own. She CHOSE to try and interact with me despite me being a scary human that she can't understand. I find that more amazing than a clipped bird that steps up because it has no choice in the manner.


I'm good (I wont say great! just, good) with using positive reinforcement with animals and figuring out how to make things more rewarding for both animal and human. (right now, I get the joys of raising and training a puppy that I didn't even agree to work with, let alone care for, plus training the puppy's human! and I have my own animals that need training!) Humans though? Yeah... not so good with... although for some reason people still think I am?