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No Toys for Breeding pairs?

melissasparrots

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Many breeders do include toys in the aviary. Some old time breeders that haven't updated their practices think that toys distract from breeding. In some cases, breeder aviaries will look comparatively bare because toys are simpler and destructible. Many are foraging toys depending on the species being raised. Also, sticking your hand into a cage where both members of a pair actively want to hurt you can be dicey. So, toys that are given tend to be either very simple and fairly durable so you only have to open that door a few times and the toy will last several months while the pair is incubating and raising babies and shouldn't be disturbed, or quick things you can toss between the bars and that the birds can destroy quickly. Also, opening and closing cage doors and being continually in the pairs business really is detrimental to breeding. Its not the toys themselves but the continual disruption and invasion of territory that tends to come from trying to treat breeders like pets. This kind of treatment does decrease production. For many months of the year, breeding pairs will be busy courting each other, working/chewing the nest box and arranging bedding in the box. Because they have each other, and the process of breeding and raising babies, pairs really do not need as much stimulation as pets.
FYI, some of the most vocal members on this board are very anti-breeder. I'm sure you've picked that up by now. Don't let it bother you too much. However, dealing with people is by far the worst part of breeding parrots. Playing with babies is fun. Dealing with future owners and the general crazy/bottom dweller types is sometimes just depressing. Dealing with other breeders can be more of the same. If you want to breed, you might want to look into a species that is not common in captivity or in the wild and really could use some breeding for conservation instead of profit. If I had more space, I'd consider buffon's macaws and a few species of amazons and pionus for myself. But, I have too many hobbies.
 

Matto

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FYI, some of the most vocal members on this board are very anti-breeder. I'm sure you've picked that up by now. Don't let it bother you too much. However, dealing with people is by far the worst part of breeding parrots. Playing with babies is fun. Dealing with future owners and the general crazy/bottom dweller types is sometimes just depressing. Dealing with other breeders can be more of the same. If you want to breed, you might want to look into a species that is not common in captivity or in the wild and really could use some breeding for conservation instead of profit.
SO true.
 

Serin

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No such thing as a bonded pair of hybrids as I have seen many separate and no loss of sleep.

Birds of a different feather do not reproduce out of love, they do it out of sexual frustration because the breeder gives them no choice.
It depends on a lot of factors, birds raised around other bird species may imprint on a bird other than its own kind. I have personally kept in my flock a spice finch who would only court society finches, a dove which rejected other doves very violently in favor of a cockatiel mate (the cockatiel accepted the dove even with other tiels around and they acted like a couple), and a budgie which rejected the offers of more than a dozen other budgies, including unpaired birds of the opposite sex, and bonded to two cockatiels. He later assisted in raising their babies, and they accepted him as a third member of their "pair".
 

melissasparrots

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There is quite a lot of studying going on right now about the role of hybridization in speciation. Personally, I've always wondered if it played a role in the evolution of the Buffon's macaw. But, that's just a guess. Most recently, I saw a gorgeous picture of a red tailed hawk x rough legged hawk hybrid wild trapped at a banding site. I'm pretty sure I even recently read an article about some warbler species in New England that was a second generation hybrid. I've also seen wild caught pictures of goshawk x cooper's hawk hybrids. It happens. Personally, I don't like to see it in captivity just because it gets hard to determine pure species in some cases when trying to set up pure breeding pairs.
 

Shezbug

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Some breeders use natural branches instead of toys for enrichment and shredding. Where I got Burt from all the birds had multiple fresh branches with flowers and gum nuts on them instead of toys, they were replaced regularly. When I asked why there were no toys I was told he had tried them with toys but the birds do not touch them while breeding so rather than have a hanging hazard in a cage that was not entered often the breeder opted for fresh branches like the birds would have in the wild. They also have each other for company and are usually so engrossed in each other that the toys did not get a look in.
I do not really have an opinion either way on this topic as I have seen many birds without toys be just as happy and busy with their fresh branches for chewing up as the birds with toys were with their toys.
 

melissasparrots

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That is the Burket's warbler.
I thought maybe it was this board that had the article somewhere. I just made a mental note to look it up later and use it for my Biology classes. Some people think it comes down to the controversy over how fast or slow evolution happens. Hybridization could be a mechanism for rapid speciation. At least, that was the general idea of the last article I read on the topic. I might have read something over coywolves on the east coast... Its an interesting topic.
 

Just-passn-thru

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I have visited different breeders and one thing I notice is that none of the birds have toys in their cages.
I would go to the source...ask the breeders why they don't supply toys. As far as third party opinions go , I believe @Matto encompasses it very thoroughly.
:teacher:
 

expressmailtome

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I thought maybe it was this board that had the article somewhere. I just made a mental note to look it up later and use it for my Biology classes. Some people think it comes down to the controversy over how fast or slow evolution happens. Hybridization could be a mechanism for rapid speciation. At least, that was the general idea of the last article I read on the topic. I might have read something over coywolves on the east coast... Its an interesting topic.
I saw the article on a Yahoo parrot discussion group.
 

Fergus Mom

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Such interesting reading in this thread.
Since I don't have babies, nor want babies, (of any species at this point)... I am fairly uninformed about animal husbandry and the practices therein. Since I worked with rescue animals (dogs and cats) most of my life, our goals were to stop the breeding of unwanted pets.

Having said that, I guess I can sum up by saying I admire folks who truly love creatures and care for them properly, providing for their bodies, minds, and happiness!

QUESTION: By 'hand raised'... I have not given this term much thought, though it is so common in ads. I was hoping that it meant "socialized"... a term we always applied to dogs and cats! But maybe in the bird world, it means 'taken from the parents and fed formula'? I'm kind of confused now. I can certainly see that a bird who was picked up, touched, played with, talked to, etc. could be much more desirable to a future owner than one who was ... feral? I am using the term feral since I have no familiar word in the bird language! What DO they call it... wild? This thread has really brought up some new questions for me. THANK you, all who have contributed.
 

Brittany0208

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I'm also curious about hand-raised and parent-raised. I have no idea which one Java is, but based on what I do know about him, I guess parent-raised?
 

Sarahmoluccan

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I'm no where near an expert but I have hear that parent raised chicks have less problems than hand raised. I belong to an avian heart group on Facebook and the mod there post alot of files on it. Interestingly enough I've also heard the theory that hand raised are more prone to plucking and self mutilation too. That's probably based on Anecdotal evidence thou. I'll track down the video I hear that from. It's long and about self mutilation. Theory being they miss something thing crucial in their development when hand raised. I do believe animals miss something when solely raised by humans. Sometimes it can't be helped thou.
 
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MahaSarah

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I think it's cruel to have birds in a cage with no toys and no foraging activities, breeder or not.
 

Sarahmoluccan

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Here's the video I was talking about. Its long and I can't remember where hand raised chick is talked about. But if I recall correctly it's in there somewhere
 

Monica

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Take a look at what backyard breeders have done to the dog population, the cat population, and the horse population - most of them breed junk and it just goes downhill from there. I'm most familiar with horses and there are so many very poor quality, badly bred horses out there that it is a crime.
Someone actually brought up that point in dogs... and shared this image.



I'm pretty sure I even recently read an article about some warbler species in New England that was a second generation hybrid.
I have a quick link to that article! ^.^ What makes it even more interesting is the fact that not only is this bird at least a second generation hybrid, but the fact that it's a hybrid between two separate genera.

DNA Testing Reveals Baffling Bird Is Three Species in One


QUESTION: By 'hand raised'... I have not given this term much thought, though it is so common in ads. I was hoping that it meant "socialized"... a term we always applied to dogs and cats! But maybe in the bird world, it means 'taken from the parents and fed formula'? I'm kind of confused now. I can certainly see that a bird who was picked up, touched, played with, talked to, etc. could be much more desirable to a future owner than one who was ... feral? I am using the term feral since I have no familiar word in the bird language! What DO they call it... wild? This thread has really brought up some new questions for me. THANK you, all who have contributed.
In the USA, Canada and Australia, hand raised parrots are pretty common... and it usually entails removing the chicks at 2-3 weeks in age from the nest and finishing hand raising them by hand until weaned. This imprints them on humans, makes them less skittish and more friendly/cuddly.

People don't want to take the time it requires to tame a parent raised bird that's skittish... but there are plenty of people willing to take in second hand, plus, birds and work with them! Hand raised raised or not... but not all of these birds will become tame/friendly pets. Many of them would be happy in an aviary situation with others like them or well, alone.

With dogs and cats, as long as they were raised in a home with humans, they will [generally speaking] be friendly with humans. If they are feral, they don't have any interest with humans. The majority of the time, this isn't the same for parrots... very few breeders are capable of raising "tame" parent raised birds. These tame birds are rarely as hands on as hand raised birds are.

That said, lovebirds, budgies and other equally small birds are often parent raised - especially cheap birds. Parrotlets and cockatiels on the other hand, although also small, are usually hand raised.

I'm no where near an expert but I have hear that parent raised chicks have less problems than hand raised.
I often wonder how different things would be if parrots were parent raised instead of hand raised... which actually reminded me of this article....

The Delinquents of Pilanesberg | The KOTA Foundation



I agree in that most breeders probably *don't* provide toys because they feel it distracts the birds from breeding. I'm also against this idea. Most breeder birds probably don't know how to play with toys because they weren't given the opportunity to! That said, if a breeder chooses to provide foraging opportunities *OVER* toys, I'm fine with that, too! Breeding or not, they need some form of enrichment!
 
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Brittany0208

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People don't want to take the time it requires to tame a parent raised bird that's skittish... but there are plenty of people willing to take in second hand, plus, birds and work with them! Hand raised raised or not... but not all of these birds will become tame/friendly pets. Many of them would be happy in an aviary situation with others like them or well, alone.
This is why I believe that Java may be parent-raised. He wants nothing to do with people and would likely fly away if ever given the chance. However, I do believe he would be lonely in an aviary, even if there was another bird. In fact, he was housed with another vasa in an outdoor aviary for a number of years, and from what the breeder told me, they hated each other. Knowing Java's personality, I can assume he was bullied since he's very passive, but it would surprise me if he'd rather be left alone even in the presence of another bird.
 

Monica

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This is why I believe that Java may be parent-raised. He wants nothing to do with people and would likely fly away if ever given the chance. However, I do believe he would be lonely in an aviary, even if there was another bird. In fact, he was housed with another vasa in an outdoor aviary for a number of years, and from what the breeder told me, they hated each other. Knowing Java's personality, I can assume he was bullied since he's very passive, but it would surprise me if he'd rather be left alone even in the presence of another bird.
It's also possible that he was hand raised and "went wild".... hard to say without being able to find the breeder and get in contact with them. Some breeders will hand raise even their future generation breeders, but then raise them differently to those they sell as pets.
 

Brittany0208

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It's also possible that he was hand raised and "went wild".... hard to say without being able to find the breeder and get in contact with them. Some breeders will hand raise even their future generation breeders, but then raise them differently to those they sell as pets.
Very true. I sent Trent an email regarding the issue, so I'm hoping to hear back from him soon.
 

Laurie

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All birds should have enrichment, not just toys necessarily but something to chew on or interect with.

Pairs of birds do a lot of interacting with one another which might take the place of play but nonetheless a bare cage is boring and I think they should have a choice to play if they want too.

Turbo, one of my male caique rings and clangs his noisey toys a little every day but when he is on egg watch he doesn't chew much wood. Daddy birds standing gaurd are busy watching for predators and protecting the nest so there no time for play.

Does that mean they should have a bare cage? No. Even chosing not to play is a choice and the ability to make choice is a fundamental need for all birds. Choosing to not play with the toys that are provided is enriching so don't take away the unused toys.
 
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