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TBD Cause of 11 Bird Deaths

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enigma731

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My read of the pathology is that this was most likely caused by hypoxia (oxygen deprivation). The read that makes the findings fit together in the most simple way is that something caused lung damage, which in turn caused oxygen deprivation to the skeletal muscles (the cause of the rhabdomyolysis), which in turn caused the kidney injury. The heart and brain findings are also suggestive of a hypoxic injury.

Of course, we'll never know which symptom came in which order, so it's possible this read is wrong -- but this is what makes the histopath so strongly suggestive of an inhaled rather than ingested toxin.
 

Bokkapooh

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That could be a possibility. However, when kidneys fail, it can cause heart arrhythmias and oxygen deprivation. With poor cardiovascular rhythm you can see signs of pressure being put onto the lungs. Causing fluid build up and shortness of breath.

Kidney failure has a huge impact on heart and lung function and shouldn't be ruled out as cause of death.

The cause of kidney failure is of question.
 

Donna turner

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Gosh, guys. It seems like this has almost degraded to a witch hunt. I watched birds and beaks Facebook that night when she showed the survivors and the different rooms in her house, and told her ways of feeding and caring for her birds. This was not a video of a careless or uninformed caretaker. And it seems some of you are ready to ditch zupreem before the jury is in. For what. You don't know yet they did anything wrong. They may be innocent. I feed small fruity zupreem and had recently opened a new bag. Not the date implicated. Cheeky loves her food and I'm hoping it doesn't turn out its zupreem, but I'm certainly taking all this seriously. Just wait until all the facts are in before assigning blame. Of course I know we have to hold off feeding the suspected foods until theyve found the real culprit ,assuming they do.
 

Just-passn-thru

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That is not the cause of death. That is the diagnostic differential, which is the medical term for "things that could possibly fit and therefore should be kept in consideration." It is not conclusive. "Not particularly specific" means that it does not point to a conclusive cause of death, merely fails to rule out the things still listed in the differential. I think it's important to make this distinction, because part of the problem is that we have laymen reading medical terms and taking them to be more conclusive than they are.
Thank you :hug4: yes !
 

Mizzely

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Gosh, guys. It seems like this has almost degraded to a witch hunt. I watched birds and beaks Facebook that night when she showed the survivors and the different rooms in her house, and told her ways of feeding and caring for her birds. This was not a video of a careless or uninformed caretaker. And it seems some of you are ready to ditch zupreem before the jury is in. For what. You don't know yet they did anything wrong. They may be innocent. I feed small fruity zupreem and had recently opened a new bag. Not the date implicated. Cheeky loves her food and I'm hoping it doesn't turn out its zupreem, but I'm certainly taking all this seriously. Just wait until all the facts are in before assigning blame. Of course I know we have to hold off feeding the suspected foods until theyve found the real culprit ,assuming they do.

Most people here have been really respectful and considerate. We all want to know what went on. Speculation based on new information may help uncover the truth. :) And if not, well, it keeps us all vigilant in keeping our birds safe because it forces us to think of things we might never have before. We all are learning from this, whether or not we find out what actually happened or not.

Now the Facebook mob? Yes, they are a pretty riotous bunch :p

I do think Zupreem sent out safe food. I also think they have a terrible response to this. So my choice to feed their food has changed by their actions, not because of testing.
 

Love My Zons

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What I have seen for this incident has been mostly on facebook. I have seen the responses from all the manufactures of the foods from their facebook sponsored posts. You have to think of how many years these foods have been made, how long they have been sold, where they are sold. ALL of the foods are on the shelves of the big box retailers. They are sold in every State, online you name it. It's a pretty serious allegation first off.

Secondly, if this issue was so widespread and the batches of foods were affected there would be more complaints lodged. That is not the case. I feel that the response from a Co is not to sway me from buying their foods. I feed Zupreem and have for a long time. I have fed Fruitblend but stick with the California Blend.

If you all recall back when aflaxtoxins found in dog food killed many dogs. Diamond Pet food was the food affected. But many other dog food manufactures use the same facilities where Diamond also had food produced. The salmonella scares with foods and stores still stock these foods and they are still stocked on shelves today.

Use your best judgement and decide or implement a feeding program that doesn't have to be a pelleted diet. Fresh, cooked, soaked and sprouted diets are generally the best.
 

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Gosh, guys. It seems like this has almost degraded to a witch hunt. I watched birds and beaks Facebook that night when she showed the survivors and the different rooms in her house, and told her ways of feeding and caring for her birds. This was not a video of a careless or uninformed caretaker. And it seems some of you are ready to ditch zupreem before the jury is in. For what. You don't know yet they did anything wrong. They may be innocent. I feed small fruity zupreem and had recently opened a new bag. Not the date implicated. Cheeky loves her food and I'm hoping it doesn't turn out its zupreem, but I'm certainly taking all this seriously. Just wait until all the facts are in before assigning blame. Of course I know we have to hold off feeding the suspected foods until theyve found the real culprit ,assuming they do.
No one is blaming Shannon, we are just trying to understand what happened. I truly feel that the histo mostly rules out the food and points to something inhaled, but that’s just the way I read it. Even if it was something inhaled, it certainly doesn’t mean that it was anything Shannon had any control over. Like I mentioned, we have a member here who lost four birds but saved two because her GWM just fell off his perch. She never did figure out what caused the deaths and still questions today what happened. The only thing they know for sure is that it was something that was inhaled and it wasn’t anything that she sprayed. Something weird in the environment happened that day and they couldn’t pinpoint it.
 

enigma731

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I continue to discuss because I want to help solve this puzzle. I know I'm not "one of the greatest minds" in avian medicine or whatever, but I am a scientist and a medical professional. If something in the exercise of these discussions ultimately helps figure out what happened, then it will be worthwhile. If it doesn't, well, then we all tried our best.
 

zoo mom

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The histology reports do not rule out an injested substance. It also could be a substance absorbed through physical contact. An organanophosphate(insect poison) is a nerve agent. It can be inhaled, ingested, or absorbed. The physical results would be the same. Disorientation, ataxia (stumbling, acting drunk) seizures, respiratory failure and death. A hydrocarbon (Gasoline, kerosene, turpentine, butane etc.) can also cause the same symptoms. At this point any conclusions would be presumptuous. It is still an open question. Was it an inhaled toxin, an ingested toxin, or an absorbed toxin. I just hope they are able to find the cause. Sometimes they never do.
 

Bokkapooh

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The histology reports do not rule out an injested substance. It also could be a substance absorbed through physical contact. An organanophosphate(insect poison) is a nerve agent. It can be inhaled, ingested, or absorbed. The physical results would be the same. Disorientation, ataxia (stumbling, acting drunk) seizures, respiratory failure and death. A hydrocarbon (Gasoline, kerosene, turpentine, butane etc.) can also cause the same symptoms. At this point any conclusions would be presumptuous. It is still an open question. Was it an inhaled toxin, an ingested toxin, or an absorbed toxin. I just hope they are able to find the cause. Sometimes they never do.
If it wasn't inhaled and I do believe Shannon when she believes she did all the testing needed to rule that out, and it's not the food itself.

It really does sound like poison. Either through consumption or physical absorption.

Shoot it could have been on Shannons hands/clothes.

However this doesn't explain the other deaths. But have other individuals done tests too? I cannot remember.
 

jmfleish

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If it wasn't inhaled and I do believe Shannon when she believes she did all the testing needed to rule that out, and it's not the food itself.

It really does sound like poison. Either through consumption or physical absorption.

Shoot it could have been on Shannons hands/clothes.

However this doesn't explain the other deaths. But have other individuals done tests too? I cannot remember.
Just because Shannon tested the air does not rule out something being there. I really doubt it was the food. The necropsy specifically states there was significant damage done to the lungs...to me that screams something inhaled. They may not be able to rule out a poison from ingestion but it just sounds like they are not leaning in that direction.

Parrots are so sensitive to anything in the air. Just because we may never experience anything or can't test the air for anything, it doesn't mean it wasn't there. I think if we continue to insist it was the food that we are going to fail to see anything else it might be.
 

SunUp

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Just because Shannon tested the air does not rule out something being there. I really doubt it was the food. The necropsy specifically states there was significant damage done to the lungs...to me that screams something inhaled. They may not be able to rule out a poison from ingestion but it just sounds like they are not leaning in that direction.

Parrots are so sensitive to anything in the air. Just because we may never experience anything or can't test the air for anything, it doesn't mean it wasn't there. I think if we continue to insist it was the food that we are going to fail to see anything else it might be.
Way back in this thread I think there was a post that mentioned a new heating system had been installed a month prior. That stood out to me at the time. I wonder if that has been double checked to be sure it isn't occasionally venting off fumes of some kind. Like it needs adjusting or something. I know when we had ours replaced some years ago they spent of lot of time to be sure the new furnace was running "clean". Just a thought.
 

Macawnutz

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With toxic inhalation cases, the small birds always go first.... How also is the glass enclosed birds explained? One of the cages was a glass enclosure, I can't imagine that has good air flow.
 

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From the rescue

How am I doing, you ask?

Well. This has easily, hands down, been one of worst times of my entire life. The last 17 days have been excrutiating.

I have surrounded myself with friends, family, and my animals. They have held me together.

I second guess every single decision I make. I obsessively watch my video feeds of the birds almost constantly if I'm not right with them. I don't want to leave the house because "what if?"

I'm working with the Department of Ag and other major universities and avian experts across the nation trying to figure out what specifically to test for. We're logically puzzling this together to figure out the next right step. We will keep doing that until we reach the destination: The cause of death for 11 birds.

A lot of not so awesome stuff is happening on the internet right now. Most everyone knows by now a certain woman got ahold of preliminary results that were not published and spread them like wildfire across the internet as if they were final, and complete.

A lot of people have questioned me why I didn't publish that to begin with. The answer is: It would have been irresponsible to. They weren't done. To publish them when there's so much more to do before we get to the end of this would cause people to make decisions for their own birds based on a teeny tiny bit of information.

Here's an example a friend gave to me. You have suspicion that soil is contaminated. You test for 5 things. The tests come back as negative. Is the soil clear? No. The soil is not clear. Testing for a 6th contaminate: arsenic comes back positive. If you left it at the first 5 tests - you could wrongly say it's clear if you just take that as the final answer. The soil is contaminated with high levels of arsenic. To rule out the first five things, those tests needed to be done, but doesn't excuse the soil. Does that make sense?

Yes. I very much do still think it's the food. No, I won't stop saying that. Not until I can be proven wrong.

I've watched people accuse me of: being a drug addict, being an alcoholic, cheating on my husband, so he murdered the birds; getting 5 bucks every time someone shares the posts; not having birds to begin with - this must all be a scam to get money; accuse my boys of murdering the birds and then giving them CPR to cover it up; planning to spray Raid on remaining food to have it retested (you guys DO know how science works, right? Additive toxins have already been tested and ruled out.); having every surface of my home covered in bird crap (surely you guys saw the live video feed and house tour, right?); feeding algae filled water; taking pictures from the live video we did and erroneously calling our Keurig an air fryer; and so, so many more things.

Do those things hurt? Sure. I'm a human being. Do they matter? No. They truly don't. I think the goal is to try to shut me down, stop me from trying to get answers and to test my resolve. And clearly those people don't know me at all. Consider me a bulldog with a bone and a bit of a bad attitude right now.

I've also watched several people talk about the events of that night like they were here. Like they lived it. Like they have all the facts. I've seen people who I've never talked to or met say they're with the rescue, and then use a bunch of cuss words representing us. Yeah. Not so much.

Hear this: If it doesn't come from me or the B&B rescue page - it's not representative of me, my thoughts, what I witnessed or my actions.

Next - Just because that certain woman and all those people feel the need to spew hatred doesn't mean we have to answer it as such. We don't need to answer it at all, actually. The things that are being said are so outlandish and incredible that the picture being painted is pretty clear and stands on its own merit as ridiculous. I'm good with natural selection taking its course on this.

So how am I doing?

I grieved. Terribly. I continue to do so. But the anger is setting in now. I am my mother's daughter. We're going to let the scientists do what they do: figure stuff out. I will do everything I can to supply them with everything they need to do their jobs. The rest is just noise.

Now, what I want is for the avian community to come together. I want deaths to be discussed and talked about. I want people to do necropsies and histologies. I want people to support people. I want to learn from each other. I want to support each other. Kindly.

Be nice to each other. Even when someone else is being a Grade A bum - just smile at them and tell them to have a nice day. That's what I've been doing. And yeah - it's gratifying to scream and cuss and yell - but it helps literally nothing.

Thank you to everyone who has been so supportive. <3 Let's keep going. Let's do our best by these birds we love so dear.
 

DQTimnehs

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How awful for them to have to deal with all the trolls and criticism on top of all the losses, guilt, second guessing themselves. :(
 

SandraK

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Talk about adding even more heartbreak to the one that you already thought was the worst. My heart goes out to her and everyone from the rescue who has had to (and still are) living this nightmare. :sadhug2::sadhug2::sadhug2:
 

sunnysmom

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I can't believe people can be so cruel and spread lies and hate. Unbelievable. I hope she gets answers soon.
 
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