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Caique decisions - Vet recommendations

What is your opinion on playtop cages?

  • They are fantastic! Love them!

  • Wish I had bought one...

  • Indifferent

  • I think they're fine, I just dont care for one personally.

  • Bought one, and wish I hadn't...

  • Dr Burkett is absolutely correct! They should be avoided at all costs!


Results are only viewable after voting.

Atomiklan

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I reached out to Dr. Greg Burkett, who is ironically a Caique owner himself. He has a single 20 year old BHC named Elvis. Is was great to get some additional information directly from a vet, especially one with personal experience with this species. I requested permission to post our conversation to hopefully help some others out there. I was actually a little surprised by some of his responses. Looking forward to additional feedback on this conversation from everyone here. Dr Burkett's responses are in red. Please see all the attached information he sent too. Cheers!

----------------------------------- START FIRST EMAIL -----------------------------------
Dear Dr. Burkett,

Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Andrew Robinson. I’m currently living down the road in Raleigh and have been spending the last few months doing countless hours of research on Caiques with the possibility of picking up one (possibly two). After speaking with several local bird owners, a nearby breeder (Rita Garris), local rescue (Jennifer Cameron), online forums (Avian Ave), etc. my head is spinning quite a bit. Several of the decisions necessary when selecting a new feathered friend (Specifically a Caique) have left me very indecisive. Part of the cause is due to the fact that this will be a first time for me. I’m sure your first thought may be, don’t get a Caique… As a result, I am approaching very cautiously and making sure to do as much research as possible before diving in. Since I have been overwhelming recommended to select you as my future Avian vet, I thought perhaps you wouldn’t mind briefly reading over my situation and providing some expert guidance. I would greatly appreciate it!

I don’t want to keep you too long, so here is the short hand version. Essentially after cycling through several breeds initially (Finches, budgies, love birds, conures, etc.), I have fallen in love with the Caique. Their colors, playful nature, high energy, etc. makes them very appealing to me. After extensive research including several books, I am now well aware of all that entails (the good and the bad). I recognize that Caiques are not the recommended first time bird due to their personalities, but I am still very interested in giving it a shot. I don’t really understand the concept of starter birds. With as long as some of these birds lifespans are, your first bird, could end up being your only bird haha. With all this in mind, the biggest decisions I am struggling with are how to make the best decision (as a brand new parrot parent) that will mitigate as much of the potential trouble for myself and the bird down the road. To give short examples of recent recommendations…

“Don’t get one, get two. They will be easier to handle”

Horrible advice! If they live in the cage together, they will barely be handleable and will certainly prefer the company of the other bird over you.

“Don’t get a mated pair, they will potentially be more aggressive”

They do not have to be a mated pair, just two in the same cage, for them to be aggressive, not just potentially so.

“Get just one, you’re a new parent and need to ease into it”

Yes, but not necessarily to ease into it. There is no such thing as easing into a caique.

“Get two right from the start. Caiques are less accepting down the road of new additions.”

Very few birds are initially accepting of a new flock member, but it is irrelevant because they should not come into physical contact anyway and should be out together only when supervised. If you start with one, getting a second at a future date is never a problem. I think you could manage two, but everything should be considered before making the commitment for 2. If you have one and it works and you feel ready, then get a second one. IF you get two and it does not work it is more difficult to place one than get a second one. My opinion is start with one. It will be easier to manage one. If two is your desire then I would support it and help you the best I can to handle it.

And on and on. I’m sure you can see why I have been running into difficulty. There is lots of conflicting advice coming in. Whatever I choose, I want to make sure (given my new parent status) that I make the best decision possible to ensure the best life and wellbeing for my new buddies and I want to avoid at all costs any possibility of rehoming. This is why I am approaching this so cautiously. I do NOT want to beyet another example of someone that got in over their head and then just dumped the birds on someone else. That’s just not fair to them and I have promised myself I will not be doing this. I’m in it for the long haul.

In this case. Get 1.

Brief back story. I’m 30 years old and an engineer and nuclear physicist here locally in RTP. I currently work two jobs. Cisco day job, and research for a private company. I have the ability to work from home most of the week for my day job and my research is in its early stages, so most of that is out of my home office too. My hours can be a little late at times. I mostly work in the afternoons to the late evening, but several other bird owners have assured me that everything will be ok. As long as I am still able to give lots of attention (which will be no problem at all), they will develop their own schedule and will be just fine. I’m also a single guy and have no plans of marrying and definitely no plans of kids. I also rarely travel except to the occasional conference or holidays with family. With all this in mind, I get the feeling I am potentially the perfect future parrot parent.

Your lifestyle will support parrot ownership.

Alright this email is already stretching out longer than I expected so let me wrap up. What I was hoping you could help me with is some advice on some of the following questions:

Given my new parrot parent status, should I look at getting one or two Caiques, and why?

Get 1. You will be able to focus on training with less distraction. You can always add another later. IF you get 2 and find you want one, then you have one to place.

If one, what sex would you recommend and why?

Female. They tend to be more predictable and not aggressive, in general.

If two, same question and why?

Both female. Males will be more aggressive with another female or another male.

Can you give some examples from other patients that have two and regret it, or have just one and regret not getting two?

I have more who have second thoughts about even getting the first one. I have a caique and he is great. I would do it again. I would not have gotten 2 and now I see why. He is enough for me to keep up with. I have only a couple of clients that have more than one and they enjoy seeing them play together and have not expressed regretting 2.

What percentage of your clients keep a pair vs just a single bird?

1%, maybe.

I am really worried about plucking, so I want to make sure I make the right decision from the start.

Plucking is rarely a problem in caiques. If they pluck it is nearly always a medical reason. Often it is reproductively related and having 2 will be a tremendous stimulus and will lead to health and behavior problems even in separate cages.

Also please at least take a look at the following table I have put together to help me decide. This really highlights all the questions above. It’s a PRO vs CON table for both one and two Caiques: http://host.atomiklan.com/caique/index.html

Pro of needing only one cage is not. You cannot have 2 in one cage. If you have 2 you must have 2 cages. If you cannot, then you can only have 1 (and enjoy it as a companion). I don’t think loneliness is a valid reason for a second bird. If they live separately (and they must) they will not have physical contact, but they may vocalize to each other. No potentially, but they WILL develop behavior problems. If you have 2 they will NOT bond with you; caiques are no different from other birds in this regards. Training two will be MORE difficult to train. A divided cage will not be sufficient to prevent them from harming each other (through the bars) by biting toes especially. Even if they get along initially, they will not always.Youtube shows only the good stuff. Stories people tell are not always complete. You will be happier with one.

I will add: More is riding on how you start off with the things you need and the husbandry you provide. For example, a cage that is too small is going to cause behavior problems A ply top cage will be even worse. Cage set up is as important as cage style (it is not intuitive). Provide a pellet diet (Harrison’s), appropriate perches, and a water bottle to prevent 90% of health problems. I have attached some information that I hope you find useful. Would be very happy to help you with setting up a cage with the right stuff and layout. We also sell cages and the stuff that goes in them.

Thank you again for all your attention! I am really looking forward to your feedback to help me make an informed decision.

Regards,
Andrew
------------------------------------- END FIRST EMAIL ------------------------------------

---------------------------------- START SECOND EMAIL ---------------------------------
Dear Dr. Burkett,

Thank you very much for the reply! I am sure you are quite busy and so I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my email in such detail. It is somewhat surprising to hear a very different opinion on a lot of the topics I have already studied, but I am highly confident in taking your expert advice. It just means I will need to go back and re-evaluate my PRO v CON sheet. Thank you also for the attached information. I have read through all of it already. I was very surprised to read that you recommend a high percentage pellet diet over fresh fruits and veggies.

That should not be a surprise. Pellets are the only guarantee for a complete and balanced diet. Fruits and vegetables are great treats, but a complete diet they do not make. Pellets need to be 90% of the diet.

If you don’t mind, I have a few final follow up questions for you. First, may I have your permission to post this email transcript and the attached information online so some other potential future Caique owners may benefit from the knowledge?

Yes, please publish this info.

I know there are a few other individuals in my shoes that have been following along closely with this decision making process. Second question. Do you know of any Caique breeders here locally, or at least closer than GA or FL? Those two locations are the only two breeders I have found so far that seem reputable and caring.

I do not know of any in this area. You can check www.rdcbs.org for possible sources.

It would be great to find someone a little closer if possible though. Was your Caique a rescue or from a breeder?

I bred Elvis myself. Many years ago I had nearly 150 pairs of breeder parrots. I had two pairs of caiques and Elvis is one of those offspring. He is approaching 20 years old.

I am guessing probably a rescue considering your direct attachment to the community. Last question. I was disappointed to read that you discourage play top cages. After reading more in depth, I wonder if the cage I am considering is perhaps an exception to that recommendation as it has both a low “playtop” and the higher dome top. I have been considering one of the large stainless steel A&E cages similar to the following: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1201/3674/products/PC-4226D_grande.jpg?v=1481314459

My wife chose this very cage for her grey. I do not like it. It is a very inefficient use of space. Our bird has never gone into the sire of the play top. It is too small and birds do not like to be low. When there is a higher part in a cage, that is where they spend their time. It is a terrible design. Dome top cages give 25% more space. It prevents cage top play, eliminating that as a source for aggression and misbehaving. Play top cages have a tray that blocks light.

Again, thank you for your time and attention!

Regards,
Andrew
----------------------------------- END SECOND EMAIL -----------------------------------

What are everyone's thoughts on the playtop cages? I'm not dismissing Dr Burkett's advice, just curious what everyone has learned over the years. Same question regarding diet. Again, not dismissing expert advice, but was surprised to hear this.
 

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Mizzely

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That playtop you linked is horrible for the reasons he mentioned. I have had play tops, domed, and flat. I prefer flat because its easier to clean, hang stuff on, and gives them more places for me to put stuff like foot toy basket, bath bowl etc. Dome top does give a lot more space though!
 

Laylatoo

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I think I'm in the minority because I love dome tops. I have a kings cage dome top for Layla and another matching new one in my closet for when our new baby comes home. Not only do I love the way they look (I also love Kings cages latches and locks) but Layla hangs out up high in the cage. Play tops make zero sense for me because the cage is in our master bedroom and used only at night or when we are briefly away. Play stands are in the living room and this is where Layla enjoys her play for the most part. I wouldn't ever have use for a playtop.
 

Atomiklan

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Thank you both for the replies. Looking forward to additional feedback to increase sample size.
 

saroj12

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My advice is to get one baby and bond with it for a couple of months. By that time you'll have a good idea of it all. At that point you can choose to add a second one or not. The original baby and the new one should have no trouble bonding imo.
 

Newbie GCC

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I prefer my flat top. I have made a play top of sorts on it myself. Had a piece of plexy glass cut to fit the top, bought large grape wood pieces that I added a hanger bolt to and mounted to the top of the flight cage. A few toys hung from it with SS eye screws and put a small toy box with foot toys and things on top and they have entertainment.
 
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aooratrix

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I only have dome tops.
 

saroj12

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JoJo and Chickie wrestle on the plexiglass cut to fit the roof of the play top.
They hop on the flat surface too. My other birds are in dome tops except for my grey who has a wing without flight feathers and I don't want him falling from a height. JoJo and Chickie surf wet towels on the plexiglass. They are in a 40" so interior space is adequate.
 

Pipsqueak

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I have flat cages and bigger playgrounds on top , I use smaller sleeping cages in the guest bedroom.
 

Just-passn-thru

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My advice is to get one baby and bond with it for a couple of months. By that time you'll have a good idea of it all. At that point you can choose to add a second one or not. The original baby and the new one should have no trouble bonding imo.
Yes simple as that...OP tends to over-think everything :cool4:
 

Just-passn-thru

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I want to get a smaller walk-in aviary for the inside of our family room. For the MM2S. I have a large one for outdoors. Right now they have a dome top . The Red Rumped Grass Keets have a combo...part is a play pen flat top and the other side is a dome top. They have the best of both worlds :cool4:
 

WendyN

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Joey loved his old play top.
We have a larger dome one now. Wish I got him a play top one.
 

MeganC

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My advice is to get one baby and bond with it for a couple of months. By that time you'll have a good idea of it all. At that point you can choose to add a second one or not. The original baby and the new one should have no trouble bonding imo.

This is exactly what I did with my conures as well and they are not only very much bonded to each other, they are also still very bonded to me. If I let them, I'm pretty sure they would never leave my shoulder.
 

Irishj9

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His answers to the first two questions made my blood pressure rise so much that I decided not to read further. I'm getting too old to treat fools gladly. A fault, I know.

If you want answers to caique husbandry questions, such as how many to have and how they might relate to you and their potential partners, THEN DONT GO TO SOMEONE WHO HAS ONLY ONE BIRD. Saroj has two, and she gave you good advice.

..........NO caique I ever met would climb out of a cage and sit on a playtop unless it had its wings butchered by its owner. It will ZOOOOM out of that cage in a joyful whirlwind of exploration and destruction. ( *2 for babies).

JoJo and chickie will sit and play on a playtop sometimes, because Saroj has ensured that they live in a HUGE caique parrotise full of stimulation and exercise. They are for all intents and purposes, uncaged,

Take the money you would have spent on a playtop and buy a cheap camera. Take some pix for us. " You wont BELIEVE what my caique did today" .......

I'm going for a lie down. Wheres that vodka?.................
 
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Laurie

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I appreciate Dr Burkett's advice and I have done business with his Avian Supply company for many years. I also believe him to be helpful and have found him to always be willing to offer advice to myself and others (and I live several states away).

However, I will say that by his own admission he states that he has one caique and his others where breeders. He also says that most of his clients do not keep two caiques together. So he is basically saying he has no personal experience with keeping two caiques together. So take those comments for what you think they are worth.

Two will be more work for you but not necessarily for them. I do not think it will matter if you get the second one within the first year or so and yes two females will likely be of a gentler dispositions.

According to Dr Burkett those of us with two are just asking for trouble but the only things I agree with are that you do need to be prepared to have two cages at any time and you will need more time especially in the beginning to bond with two birds. Once they like you they will like you even if they have a buddy. However, it is likely to be a different relationship then if you had only one but in my opinion, a better more balanced one. It will take you twice as long to train them if you have two, you might be able to manage two at a time but they are likely to be more of a distraction to one another than a help. The only possible exception to this would be training recall. It is fairly easy to manage this and one will sometimes follow the other. If timing is critical then training one at a time is much better.

I always say that if I had only one caique he would be well trained. With six, I have six wild birds (actually they are pretty well trained but not like one would be). If I had one or even two they would acclimated to many more behaviors and situations. The best news is they are fast learners. Unless they are like my Peaches, who is a lazy little treat moocher, :lol:

I will admit I love to see caiques being caiques and I am not a cuddler so two is perfect for me. If you are needy and need to feel you are the only one that your bird loves and you are it's favorite then you probably should get a single bird. If you want to see birds being birds and including you in their world then two might be better.

You are down to the nitty gritty details and it looks to me that it is really just a personal preference. I say get one and if you like it get another a few months later. Saroj is wise, wise woman :)
 

jmfleish

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I appreciate Dr Burkett's advice and I have done business with his Avian Supply company for many years. I also believe him to be helpful and have found him to always be willing to offer advice to myself and others (and I live several states away).

However, I will say that by his own admission he states that he has one caique and his others where breeders. He also says that most of his clients do not keep two caiques together. So he is basically saying he has no personal experience with keeping two caiques together. So take those comments for what you think they are worth.

Two will be more work for you but not necessarily for them. I do not think it will matter if you get the second one within the first year or so and yes two females will likely be of a gentler dispositions.

According to Dr Burkett those of us with two are just asking for trouble but the only things I agree with are that you do need to be prepared to have two cages at any time and you will need more time especially in the beginning to bond with two birds. Once they like you they will like you even if they have a buddy. However, it is likely to be a different relationship then if you had only one but in my opinion, a better more balanced one. It will take you twice as long to train them if you have two, you might be able to manage two at a time but they are likely to be more of a distraction to one another than a help. The only possible exception to this would be training recall. It is fairly easy to manage this and one will sometimes follow the other. If timing is critical then training one at a time is much better.

I always say that if I had only one caique he would be well trained. With six, I have six wild birds (actually they are pretty well trained but not like one would be). If I had one or even two they would acclimated to many more behaviors and situations. The best news is they are fast learners. Unless they are like my Peaches, who is a lazy little treat moocher, :lol:

I will admit I love to see caiques being caiques and I am not a cuddler so two is perfect for me. If you are needy and need to feel you are the only one that your bird loves and you are it's favorite then you probably should get a single bird. If you want to see birds being birds and including you in their world then two might be better.

You are down to the nitty gritty details and it looks to me that it is really just a personal preference. I say get one and if you like it get another a few months later. Saroj is wise, wise woman :)
This is great advice! I also do business with Dr. Burkett and have for years. I kind of think he's a little old school but some of the things he said are true. Birds tend to not get along if you don't bring them up together when they are very young, but it isn't always the case. I also totally do not agree that if you cage birds together they will not want to have a relationship with you. My thoughts on that are, if they were hand fed, chances are, you can cage them with any bird you want, they will always want to have a relationship with the human that they have a relationship with. I currently have my two biological Ekkie boys housed together and they have a meltdown if they aren't within sight of one another but they also stick to me like glue whenever they are out together. One, Cooper, I've had since he was 16 weeks of age. The other, Wylee, didn't even join our household until the age of five. Guess who is more of a momma's boy and more attached to me?:) Wylee!:) I also have Amarillo YHA and Iris BFA who are buddies and while they aren't caged together, they both formed a bond in their teens of their own choice and both are still completely still great human companions. Then we have the evil pink twins...caged together but still love human contact when they don't want to eat your hand off!:) So, I say hogwash to that!:)

As for the cage, I owned that cage at one point and every bird I had at that time (Cooper SIE, Tuchis TAG, Clancy CAG, Petey Patagonian Conure) hated it. They wouldn't use the side under the playstand area. I wouldn't waste my money on it. As for what kind of cage to get...as long as you have a lot of room, a playtop type cage is fine. As others have mentioned, you can just get a piece of plexiglass to fit on the top so you can get more light into it. I typically go with dometops for the room but can see why people like the playtops. Be careful when buying a dometop though because if you don't get the kind that has bars going both ways in regular increments, hanging toys is a pain!:)
 

JLcribber

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I will add: More is riding on how you start off with the things you need and the husbandry you provide.
This is the bottom line. This whole situation is not about the bird. It has "everything" to do with your husbandry skills and the environment you provide. Always is. That is what will determine the bird you ultimately end up with.
 

alshgs

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Unfortunately I have no experience with caiques so I can't speak from there. I also see Dr. Burkett and he is old school, so you have to take his advice in a certain way. That being said, he has been beyond great to us when we lost our Rio back in December.
As for the cages, I prefer the playtop ones, but I have a flat top and a playtop. I don't like dome tops, but that's personal preference
 
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