the constant bird-diet debate

[clawnz]

Sprouts, seed, fruit and veg. Nuts. Works for my Fids. Even my AV says they are in great condition.
In fact we just had a issue with two new guys (Eclectus) and we cleared slight traces od Staphylococci with just diet and Probiotics.
I feed No Processed foods. No cooked foods. No pellets.
Everything is fresh real foods.

 

[BeeBop]

Sprouts, seed, fruit and veg. Nuts. Works for my Fids. Even my AV says they are in great condition.
In fact we just had a issue with two new guys (Eclectus) and we cleared slight traces od Staphylococci with just diet and Probiotics.
I feed No Processed foods. No cooked foods. No pellets.
Everything is fresh real foods.

Nice! May I ask, do Eclectus have different diet requirements and that's why you don't feed cooked foods?

 

[Monica]

Nice! May I ask, do Eclectus have different diet requirements and that's why you don't feed cooked foods?

Clive has actually been feeding a fresh food based diet long before he has ever taken care of an eclectus. He's kept predominantly cockatiels, alexandrines and budgies, species that don't have any special dietary requirements. All of his boarders have also been put onto a healthier diet, and hopefully, the owners have continued with this diet.

 

[BeeBop]

@Monica Really? So, no grains or sweet potato? Just wondering, what are the reasons why you wouldn't feed cooked foods? Perhaps because parrots don't eat cooked foods in the wild?

 

[Monica]

Grains can be sprouted! Along with legumes and seeds.

Sweet potato would be lightly cooked, if fed.


You can look back at some of Clive's past threads on his thoughts in regards to diet.


Pellets? Why? | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum
Sprouting Easy or Complicated? | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum
Is it time to think Real foods | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum



Although I do feed pellets, I rarely ever feed cooked foods, beyond grains and legumes. However, I plan on changing that soon.

A lot of people like to feed birdy bread, pasta and other human foods to their birds. I've just never really done so myself. If and when I have, it's been on a rare occasion. I don't have any specific reason as to why, I just don't. Birdy bread can be a great way to encourage picky eaters into eating a broader diet because you can hide foods in the bread, but it's not something that I do personally. I've converted birds over to eating healthier without having to do tricks like that. Perhaps I've been lucky.

Honestly, my pickiest eater is Charlie, my mitred, but he still eats fresh foods.

 

[Monica]

Oh and this. I've been wanting to share this just haven't yet to anywhere on the forum. Only recently came across it, but it is something I can agree with.



Today Dr Scott Echols, leading avian vet, answered a question on why he doesn't recommend feeding animal protein to birds in his Nutrition for Pets group. Here is his reasoning, if you are still not convinced.:

Scott Echols: "Janet L Brown my recommendation on feeding animal protein to parrots have nothing to do with my personal or others eating beliefs! It is very simple- I don't think it is a good idea for parrots. Let me explain....

The issue is not the animal protein. It is the animal cholesterol (different from plant based cholesterol). Cholesterol in itself is not bad. In fact it is necessary. However, for reasons not understood either animal based cholesterol or the nutrients packaged with the cholesterol (maybe how the meat is prepared, cooked, treated, etc) seem to rapidly induce atherosclerotic lesions in parrots.

I am making a blanket statement when i say parrots because we actually have very few studies on parrots being fed cholesterol. In 2 separate studies I can think of (one with pigeons and one with monk parakeets) severe atherosclerotic lesions were induced by feeding animal based cholesterol in as little as 3 months.

To be fair, those studied birds were fed up to 1% cholesterol in their diet (which is a lot) and does not represent a natural situation. However, it does show that in a controlled study animal cholesterol can induce severe life threatening disease. We really don't know why and the human correlate is not the same.

Because as a clinician I see so much atherosclerosis (especially in dead birds), I want to understand the risk factors. Here is what we know so far: low omega-3 levels in body tissues, history of feeding animal protein (and cholesterol), high omega-6 fatty acids in body tissues and general high fat diets (seeds and nuts).

There are also factors that are less well defined but seem to have a roll in atherosclerosis development in parrots: lack of exercise, high simple carbohydrate diets, correlation with metabolic bone disease (and all of its risk factors), history of certain inflammatory diseases and more.

The factors in the last group are weakly associated meaning there is not enough data at this time to strongly tie them to atherosclerosis development. However obvious it may seem that lack of exercise may lead to heart disease in birds, we just don't have enough data to make a strong association (at this time).

For that reason, I try to make recommendations that I feel are reasonable but are open to interpretation and change: They are as follows:

1) Don't feed animal based protein or fat to parrots
2) plant based foods rich in omega-3 fatty acids
3) Avoid foods high in omega-6 fatty acids
4) Avoid feeding seeds and nuts (there are rare exceptions)
5) Provide an environment that allows for curiosity, enrichment and exercise.
6) Provide as much supervised sunshine therapy (don't cook, freeze, expose to predators, etc) as possible
7) Avoid feeding refined carbohydrates (anything with flour- bread, pasta, chips, tortillas, etc)​

 

[BeeBop]

Why should you avoid nuts? I know you should avoid peanuts because they can have mold, but what about other nuts such as almonds?

 

[Monica]

Some birds require nuts in their diet, such as macaws. IMO, nuts *are* healthy, if fed as treats. Seeds can *also* be a healthy addition to a diet. However, that doesn't mean that the entire diet should be made up of seeds and pellets. Instead of feeding dry seeds, one could feed sprouted seeds instead. A lot of people do not believe that sprouts and seeds are the same thing, even if you used a seed mix to make the sprouts.


Came across a couple of sites while trying to find the exact information that Dr Scott Echols had posted. It's just a shame though that some of the information or websites are no longer available.

Food for Parrots | For Parrots: Posters for Parrot Advocates
Podcasts With Dr. Echols

 

[BeeBop]

Grains can be sprouted! Along with legumes and seeds.

Sweet potato would be lightly cooked, if fed.


You can look back at some of Clive's past threads on his thoughts in regards to diet.


Pellets? Why? | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum
Sprouting Easy or Complicated? | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum
Is it time to think Real foods | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

Also, thank you, I'm going to try sprouting brown rice first.

 

[Tyrion]

Why should you avoid nuts? I know you should avoid peanuts because they can have mold, but what about other nuts such as almonds?

You shouldnt ...tree nuts are healthy for our parrots they have great nutrients in them even more when soaked Why You Should Soak Nuts Before Eating Them | Healthful Pursuit a lil something else to read on tree nuts Tree Nut consumption is associated with better adiposity measures and cardiovascular and metabolic syndrome health risk factors in U.S. Adults: NHANES 2005–2010 | Nutrition Journal | Full Text

 

[Mizzely]

Why should you avoid nuts? I know you should avoid peanuts because they can have mold, but what about other nuts such as almonds?

Nuts are high energy/fatty and Dr. Echols has explained elsewhere before that because of the low energy requirements for most birds in captivity that it is unnecessary to feed them as a staple of the diet.

 

[Tyrion]

Unfortunately there are allot of misconception about tree nuts and its really to bad because they can be a great addition to your birds diet ...I feed dry nuts with my seed ..soaked nuts and have nuts in my mash all are fed daily ...My bird are not over weight actually my Blue Fronted Amazon has lost most of her extra weight over the past year on this diet ...do you own research never stop reading ...I have found this Log into Facebook | Facebook face book page to be full of valuable information

 

[BeeBop]

Nuts are high energy/fatty and Dr. Echols has explained elsewhere before that because of the low energy requirements for most birds in captivity that it is unnecessary to feed them as a staple of the diet.

So a similar concept to seeds, not a main food yet not excluded.

 

[Mizzely]

Unfortunately there are allot of misconception about tree nuts and its really to bad because they can be a great addition to your birds diet ...I feed dry nuts with my seed ..soaked nuts and have nuts in my mash all are fed daily ...My bird are not over weight actually my Blue Fronted Amazon has lost most of her extra weight over the past year on this diet ...do you own research never stop reading ...I have found this Log into Facebook | Facebook face book page to be full of valuable information

I am always researching I was just stating what I had heard Dr. Echols state before, and as he is one of the leading veterinaries in the country regarding avian nutrition, I tend to listen. I do feed some seeds and nuts, as I personally, from my research, think they have a place. However I do think people tend to overfeed both seeds and nuts, because as healthy as they are, too much of a good thing is still bad. The fact is that MOST of the birds in captivity don't use up enough calories to compensate for the "healthy" diets they are being fed.

 

[clawnz]

Thank You Monica.
What more could I ask for! Than such a great comment from you.

True I have always tried to keep it as natural as possible.
My sprouting thread has become large, and I recommend to start at the end and work back from there. I have just posted a short vid of stills, showing my last batch. Some shots of a bought soak & sprout, and the Eccy's getting stuck in.
One main thing that jumps out at me in the vid! Is seeing Percy, actually go for the sprouts, over the seed mix in the same bowel.
He is/was a Sunflower seed junky, when he came in boarding this time round, (now 14mths ago). So many owners are killing their birds with kindness, which is so very sad.
I have seen Percy, on and off since he was 5mts old. So when he came in this time (he is about 3.5yrs) I was a little sad to see his condition dropping off. From bad diet and a series of life events that see his owners in a fairly dramatic break up. He has gone through monumental changes. It took him months to readjust to living here.
The sprouts have become my mainstay. It has evolved a long way from where I was sprouting Mung beans. Too the last batch had over 20 different types, in it.
When you consider most of my own flock have been secondhand birds, it is very gratifying to see them bloom. And that last comment from my own AV, who once told me I should be feeding Pellets. Even way back then I said. 'No Thank You! I will find a way to feed them a more natural diet.' Oh! you need to be feeding pellets. WRONG!
Now we work on diets and if possible deal with more natural treatments. I am not saying throw out medications, as we will always need them.
But only use when there is a good reason to do so.Same goes for those who treat for worms, without knowing they have worms. The two Ecyy's above have both tested clear this year. In fact gram stains were very good.
Good health has always been diet related. And diet adjusted to life style.

Monica is correct. I have worked hard on the owners of the birds that come in boarding, to up their diets. mainly teaching how to sprout.
Most guys coming in, take to fresh sprouts very quickly. I have had them come to the bowel of sprouts, as I am prepping the morning foods.
Took two Canaries in over Christmas, one was sick and on medications. (Another story). But in less than a week I could show the owner that they were eating the sprouts before their own seed mix. Everyday.
I think it is the fact that sprouts are a natural food for most bird types, that makes them an easy conversion. And they are a top food to boot.

Scott and Jason are both, well worth looking up.

Alex.

 

[Monica]

Clive, I wish my flock ate as well as yours did! Soon, I hope!

I'm still feeding pellets and seeds with fresh foods taking up a smaller portion of the diet. I will freely admit that pellets *have* helped thousands, even millions of birds to be healthier! But that doesn't change the fact that pellets are "dead" food, in the sense that seeds are "living" foods once they are sprouted. Although lifespans have improved thanks to pellets, the best diet is going to be one that consists of mostly whole foods. Not everyone can provide that kind of diet for various reasons. It is, after all, "harder" to provide a complete fresh food based diet than it is to stick something inside the cage that's supposed to be a complete diet or close to it. My cats and dog eat the processed stuff! There's no way I could afford to feed them a raw diet! I don't expect other people to be able to feed a raw/whole food diet, either, but if they can, definitely encouraged to do so!


I've been to NZ before and I've seen how expensive a lot of products are there! Anything from products for humans to pet products! Ridiculous compared to how cheap some things are here! Sadly here, it's more expensive to eat healthy than it is to eat a crappy diet. My sister, when she lived there, said it was the opposite there. You've simply managed to go above and beyond what most are capable, or even willing to do! I hope you are able to continue helping many birds for a long time to come!