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Breeding Pionus?

allie136

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Is anyone a breeder of Pionus parrots? I am interested in breeding a pair and can't find much about it online so far. Are they very difficult to breed in captivity? Can they breed inside the home in their cage nest box, or does it only happen in an aviary?

I have read in several places they typically lay 3-5 eggs and breeding season is in the Fall.
 

JLcribber

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Well it's my self appointed duty to ask you why you want to breed them and how much breeding experience you have? There are innumerable great birds in a rescue near you just waiting for your love.
 

JLcribber

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Just read your intro thread. You have no bird experience what so ever and you want to breed a pair of parrots? I'm going to save you a lot of hurt, suffering and heartache right now. You have no clue what you are getting into and for the birds sake don't do it. Please consider my previous post.
 

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Most breeding pairs are not tame. Breeders will rarely maintain a bond with mated pairs - they don't want to run the risk that the bird becomes bonded to a human or otherwise fails to reproduce.

You are very, very unlikely to get a mated, proven pair that is also pet material. It just doesn't happen. Us that have pet parrots spend huge amounts of effort suppressing our birds' mating desires. Parrots live to reproduce - and along with that comes a host of nasty hormone-induced behaviors. My little cockatiel Phoenix will viciously attack my boyfriend (100x his size) if he comes near me. Now, imagine if I was another bird - we'd both be getting attacked. And now imagine if his beak were bigger - my boyfriend would be missing half his face.

Breeding parrots is a hobby. It is not a money maker (unless you're doing it wrong). It is not as simple as letting them have a few babies a year and making a few hundred bucks off each one. If it were, we'd all be doing it. ;) You have to be a real parrot nut to breed, and you're barely beginning...!
 
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allie136

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Thank you Jaguar, I was wondering about that issue if it's even possible to have them as pets and breeders at the same time, from what I've read so far it seems unlikely but then again I've read of people's pets mating and laying eggs too so I wasn't clear on this.

I do have bird experience but it is with smaller birds parakeets some years ago, everyone has to start somewhere anyway... I love animals and especially birds. I live in the UK and there are actually not parrots in the rescue shelters I have seen so far, they seem to go to forever homes in sanctuaries? But I need to look at this more in case I've missed somewhere.

The Pionus sounds like a good fit for me and they are not very common here, so it's not like I would be breeding something already over bred like cats and dogs. A UK parrot site encourages the breeding of birds to build up the species here and I don't think there's anything wrong with that if you love these animals and have the time, love and patience to put into doing it. As I would only breed one pair, I would be a hobby breeder, not doing it to get rich! Possibly I could have a breeder pair not tame, kept in an aviary then and keep one of their babies in our home as a pet?
 

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As I would only breed one pair, I would be a hobby breeder, not doing it to get rich!
So why are you doing it? Not for them, because their is already a lot of birds that someone had given up that need new and good homes.
This world doesn't need more breeders, this world need more angels that can give the abounded bird a new forever home.
The majority of all bird owner have their parrots for 1-3 year. Consider that before breeding them.
 

Jaguar

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Forever sanctuaries are mostly a pipe dream... where does the money come from? With animals that live 40+ years, how is there enough space for all of them? Do a quick search for the World Parrot Sancutary in Coombs, BC... that's the unfortunate fate of some sanctuaries. Try something like Gumtree or other classified sites if you're interested in giving a second hand parrot a home.

Maybe they're not common in your particular area, but there is no denying that the amount of unwanted parrots around the world is staggering. We see parrots that go through 7+ owners in a lifetime. We see people get cute, sweet babies and dump them as soon as they grow up and start acting like the wild animals that they are. We see breeders start off with good intentions, get in over their heads, end up with babies dying... stress and heartbreak... and even if you get through it all, and you screen homes as meticulously as possible, there's still a very high chance of one of your babies ending up dumped or rehomed. It's not always as enjoyable of an experience as it sounds.
 
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allie136

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You guys sound against all bird breeding, which is your entitled opinion, but quite insulting to breeders. If someone has what is needed to put into doing it, the time and love for the animals etc then I don't see a problem as there is always a market for pet birds and breeding them in captivity is far better than taking them from the wild to meet that demand.

There will always be some that end up in rescues/sanctuaries but that happens with any animal because of the owner's personal situation changing or whatever their reason, that's just how it is unfortunately. There are many wonderful parrot homes and owners too though. I don't think as a breeder it makes you responsible for the worst happening, that is down to the new owners perhaps not doing enough research before buying one or other reasons. I would hope that by breeding a more expensive bird such as a Pionus (although cheap compared to some other birds!) you would get more serious owners who look into them a lot more before spending a large amount of money buying one.

Thanks for your thoughts on this and all the points made, lots more for me to think about and research still. Maybe best to not rush it and get one as a pet first, I'm just excited about it and want to get started!
 

Lodah

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Maybe best to not rush it and get one as a pet first
Sounds like a great idea! :)

Once you realize how much a fid changes your life, that they are sentient and the consequences of being a parront, your priorities tend to change a tad for the better!
 
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Begone

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I don't think as a breeder it makes you responsible for the worst happening, that is down to the new owners perhaps not doing enough research before buying one or other reasons.
If there is no breeders, we can give the abounded parrots new homes.
And only a breeder that doing it for the money doesn't feel quilt.
I would hope that by breeding a more expensive bird such as a Pionus (although cheap compared to some other birds!) you would get more serious owners who look into them a lot more before spending a large amount of money buying one.
Serious owners has nothing to do with money. So you are saying that rich people have more responsibility?
but quite insulting to breeders.
If I can persuade you not to breed, I will take that don't like me, and if you find me rude, I will be fine with that too.
I love animals, and we don't need more parrots, we have so many abounded already.
 

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Please try to stay respectful to everyone.
 

Sylvi_

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Sorry if some of us can come off a bit harsh but it's because many of us see just how many, and how often, parrots are abandoned.

It's a sad reality that often, a parrot will be rehomed once it's no longer that cute little baby, and when we see how common a situation like that is it can be hard for us to see hobby breeding as a positive thing.
I think responsible breeders have a place in the world, but really, the majority are just hobby breeders breeding for fun or even worse, profit.
And with the amount of homeless parrots, why bring more babies that could very likely be abandoned into the world? And sadly, that's even if they survive. There are many risks that come with breeding like hand feeding etc.

I suggest looking for a fid of your own, let the bird choose you. Maybe it'll be a Pionus or perhaps not.
Good luck! :)


 

karen256

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Personally I don't think Pionus are really overbred - some species are, but Pionus are just not all that common, and are relatively easy to care for for a medium-sized parrot, they just tend to be overlooked compared to more colorful parrots. A small breeder raising a clutch of babies a year and providing excellent care and educating buyers is a good thing imo - the problem is mainly commercial scale breeders or uneducated/unknowledgable breeders, and uneducated buyers as well.

But in any case, you need to do a lot of research before you consider breeding and I do think it's a good idea to get one as a pet first. See what they are like, learn their behavioral quirks, and talk to Pionus breeders - try to meet some adult Pionus, too, not just babies. Learn what makes a good breeder (among other things, a good breeder will breed only from the best quality, healthiest adults in top condition, will give the babies and breeding bird proper vet care and a varied healthy diet including lots of different fresh foods, will socialize the babies well, let them learn to fly, make sure they are fully weaned before letting them go to new homes, and most importantly, work to educate and screen new owners and be willing to take birds back). Most good breeders will also maintain a waiting list for babies to ensure their babies will have homes ready.
As with most medium and larger parrots, pet birds usually don't make good breeders. Pets set up for breeding will typically become very territorial and aggressive around the nest. Some birds will revert back to being nice pets when not breeding. But in any case, it is a natural behavior for them. In the wild, good nest sites are rare and a pair must protect their nest fiercely - or else another pair might move in and toss out their eggs or babies. That means that even other Pionus that they flock with outside of the breeding season can become a serious threat when they are breeding, and they often see their owners as a similar threat.
Oh and given a proper diet and a nestbox, a compatible pair can breed in a large indoor cage, but an aviary is so much better for them. Depending on the climate, an outdoor aviary would probably need to have a heated shelter or an attached smaller indoor section.

I don't know of any good sources of info on breeding Pionus. Years ago, there was a Pionus research group which was a group of some breeders that funded research on wild Pionus, especially their diet, but it looks like it's been inactive for many years. You might find some useful info on their site even though it looks quite dated now. Pionus Parrots Research Foundation
 

melissasparrots

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Many on this forum are very anti-breeder. Yes, it is insulting to breeders. I breed parrots, but in very limited numbers and I don't breed Pionus. From my observations here in the USA, Pionus are not an over bred species and I actually wish I saw them around more. You may wish to start out with a female pet pionus or an unrelated pair of babies. You can enjoy them as pets when young and see what happens as they mature. This will let you get to know the species, get to know the birds and since you aren't breeding to make a lot of money, it hopefully won't be a deal breaker for you if they chose not to breed. However, realize that if they do breed, there is very little happy medium where you get good pets and good breeders. If you give them the opportunity to breed, do so knowing you may have to choose either going mostly hands off and giving them privacy to have success with chicks, or work hard to suppress breeding urges to keep your pets. Trying for the middle ground tends to result in poor parents and loss of life in the babies which is just heartbreaking. Also, once the pair is formed and breeding behavior starts, you often can't go back to being good pets as they were before. So its not like you can try breeding, decide its not for you and then split up the pair and have happy pets again. Actually, you can split up the pair, but its not a nice thing to do and if they are in the same home together, at least one member of the pair is likely to always be a little(very) unpredictable and they will always be distracted trying to be together. Sometimes both with remain just plain resentful of your existence on the planet for ever more. Basically, you can't take it back once you start it.

Get the book Hand-feeding and Nursery Management by Howard Voren and Rick Jordan. Some of the info about formulas is semi-outdated but its still packed full of useful information about neonatal parrot care. Also, make sure you have it straight in your head what your goals are regarding parent raising or hand-feeding. Many Europeans are very pro-parent raised. This is fine, but make sure you are okay with a few failed attempts in the beginning which means dead babies. If the parents never catch on to raising babies, make sure you are either willing to step in and hand-raise regardless of your personal beliefs and goals on the matter, or retire the pair and live with a semi-untame pair that is not productive and not pets.

We do have a former Pionus breeder on this site. I think its @Jan Maybe she can step in and give solid Pionus specific advice. The above was just my reality of a bird breeder standard issue advice.
 

allie136

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Serious owners has nothing to do with money. So you are saying that rich people have more responsibility?
I meant if a bird is more expensive, I imagine only people who are more serious about having one would be prepared to spend so much money on it. Less likely to be an impulse purchase, which probably happens a lot with cheaper birds like budgies, people might buy them as they are cheap and look pretty in the pet store. If it cost more, they would research and be sure that is the right bird for them before buying one and it being a mistake.

Sylvi thank you for explaining some people's feelings on the issue, I can understand. I feel that way about crossbred dogs, people just adding to the huge amount of mutts in shelters. It's a different situation breeding specific breeds of which there is always a demand for puppies. Here African Grey parrots seem to be popular for a pet bird choice, so I wouldn't want to breed them partly because there are probably plenty of breeders here already. Pionus I had never heard of before I started researching birds more recently. I have only found one breeder in the UK so far and expect them to become more popular in the future as people find out about them, they seem like an ideal pet bird to have -quieter, less demanding, like some affection but are independent too. I guess people just haven't heard about them like I hadn't.. The pet stores near me have African Grey's, Amazons, Conures and Cockatoo's sometimes.

Karen & Melissa Thank you for everything you said! I am definitely going to continue researching more before I do anything. Ok so from what I have read so far and been told, I will be looking for a proven breeding pair to breed from and keep in an aviary outside, not as pets. (I always planned to have an aviary). Hopefully I can have a pet Pionus kept inside our home too, but not to breed from, it will only be a pet as I wouldn't want to lose that tameness with it.
I will check out that Pionus website, and have just ordered the book on Hand-feeding and nursery management. I want to know everything I can first, so the babies have the best chance with me hand raising them after the first week or so. And I am 100% willing to step in earlier to hand raise the chicks if needed earlier than that, depending on what kind of parents the breeding pair are. I didn't know Europeans are known to be more into the parent birds raising the chicks, I need to research this further but know there are risks involved in both situations. Thanks again for your advice! Oh and I have found Jan's website already read a lot on there, looking forward to watching some of her video's soon.
 

melissasparrots

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Beware the advertised proven pair. Make sure its a very reliable source and ask for references. Unless a breeder is going out of business completely, they don't often want to get rid of their best producing pair. Some however will try to unload a non-producing pair or an old pair that is no longer producing and claim its proven. We used to have one guy here in Iowa that consistently showed up to fairs with "proven" pairs of pionus and small amazons. The birds always had that old, worn out aviary bird look to them. There were times I thought about buying a pair as a rescue/good deed, but never thought of them as a good source of future babies.

Consult some other Pionus breeders for the best way to establish pairs. Some of my best pairs of amazons and parrotlets have been pet birds that I rehomed. They were already mature or a few months post weaning when I got them but not previously set up and still relatively young. In my experience, those pairs went to nest fairly quickly or as soon as they were mature. My lowest producing pairs have been birds that I introduced as weanlings and I suspect they thought of each other as siblings for a long time. Other people have had the opposite findings so research how successful Pionus people are setting up their pairs.

Also, if you think you will get to the point of having babies, make sure you are willing to be very honest with buyers about the pros and cons of the species you raise. It helps to have had one of them as a pet yourself prior to breeding so you know from experience. Ask open ended questions and weed out the irresponsible people and people not able or willing to do research or entertain the thought that a bird they want could be a challenge at times. A lot of the problem with unwanted parrots can end before it starts if breeders were careful who they sold to. You may also make sure buyers know you are willing to buy back a baby if their life changes or they find they are in over their head with the bird. Buying back a bird can be a potential risk in terms of bringing diseases from the other home into your home if the buyer had other birds. You might make sure you can do good quarantine and testing if you are willing to buy back.
 
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Hankmacaw

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20 years ago, when I volunteered for a couple of years at one of the largest parrot sanctuaries in the US, I came out of totally against breeding birds. I had seen the sorry shape so many birds were in and had been treated by humans so badly that they had been made totally unfit to be pets. Remember that every one of those pitiful parrots had at one time been a person's beloved baby. Additionally many, many of the parrots in the sanctuary had been breeders that were going to be euthanized or abandoned. There were breeders, one of whom had produced 200 chicks for her owner, that was going to be killed. There was murders' row where eight male cockatoos that had killed at least one mate were going to live out their lives. There were parrots that were crazier than a looney and lived in a fog of fear.

I got my Hank and Jasper and after 19 years of caring for them and educating myself more about the worldwide condition of parrots in the wild, I'm no longer against breeding and breeders - I would just like to strangle the bad ones. Having parrots captive bred relieves the pressure on wild caught birds and provides a base population for repopulation of the wild ones when needed. I'm still very much a proponent of adopting mature parrots.

I'm 76 years old and have a lot of life experience - you on the other hand sound quite young to me (correct me if I'm wrong), with very little to no experience (especially about parrots).

My advice to you is to adopt a pet parrot and take several years to learn more about breeding. Be sure to save up a lot of money during that time, because breeding isn't just sticking the parrots in an aviary and waiting for baby parrots to pop out of the eggs. You might even take a couple of business and accounting and genetics classes while learning.
 

echobird

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I meant if a bird is more expensive, I imagine only people who are more serious about having one would be prepared to spend so much money on it. Less likely to be an impulse purchase, which probably happens a lot with cheaper birds like budgies, people might buy them as they are cheap and look pretty in the pet store. If it cost more, they would research and be sure that is the right bird for them before buying one and it being a mistake.
Unfortunately, this is not the case many times. I've gone to chain pet stores to pick up nutriberries and have seen people many times look at the pretty sun conure and impulse buy it. That's a $700 bird at my local petco and petsmart.

If you do decide to breed. Please screen the potential owners vigorously. Make sure they know what it takes to bring such an intelligent, wild animal home.
 

Jaguar

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Unfortunately, this is not the case many times. I've gone to chain pet stores to pick up nutriberries and have seen people many times look at the pretty sun conure and impulse buy it. That's a $700 bird at my local petco and petsmart.

If you do decide to breed. Please screen the potential owners vigorously. Make sure they know what it takes to bring such an intelligent, wild animal home.
Yep. My friend works at Petco, a couple weeks ago someone bought a pineapple green cheek for something absurd like $600. It was returned two weeks later when it bit the person's kid. :(
 
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