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Training question

BobbyC

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hi Bobby, I don't have a too but I will try to answer some of things I have learned volunteering at my cousin vet clinic with some of the birds there. baby steps, little tiny, baby steps with aggressive birds. I don't trust Fast Freddy who lives there until they can find him a home. Fast Freddy is severe macaw who recently lost his owner(death). Poor Freddy just doesn't understand what in the world happened. he can be extremely aggressive with biting to the point of the person needing stitches. last weekend was a bit of breakthrough with him, no bites and his tucking his head into my armpit (boy was I scared of being chomped on). the whole time I was cleaning the bird room I was talking to him, singing to him (should leave my singing voice at home) engaging him to the sound of my voice. opening his cage door, I saw the first aggressive move that he displays. he put his head out the door with some pinning of his eyes, no wings shaking, or dancing, acting like I'm going to get you. you have to watch for that carefully because right after that he is going to lunge and snap. I backed up a bit and let him have his space, the whole time talking to him about what he was getting for breakfast. I didn't take him out of the cage but once I backed up he settled down and Dr. Tony did take him out. I got his breakfast before he was out and had it in the cups to java tree. he was out the whole time I cleaned his cage. he ate for the first time breakfast outside of his cage. after getting permission, I move him into double macaw cage with all of his toys, blankie and treats hidden all over the new cage. he stepped up (Amazing) without a nip, bite or a lunge he even allowed some gentle scritches to his head.
I am firm believer that you have to find their comfort zone and work with it in your own comfort zone. I am not trainer not by a long shot, I am still learning to love those big beaks. I have my own problem child (Bebe) a cockatiel that was neglected and we are working thru his trust levels. one baby step at a time.
Oh I definitely agree. We get a lot of aggressive birds who were neglected and abused at the shelter. I never try to rush them or push them. I let them work on what they want to do. And it's always different. I've had a macaw that was beaten with a broom bond with me and trust me in a week, and a cockatoo that was surrendered without being abused who took me months. So I'm very patient and just do a little at a time as they open up to me.
 

JLcribber

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I dont mean actually training her to do anything. She steps up on a stick so far and beyond that I haven't pushed her or tried anything else. The most I've done is put a chair by her cage and sit down reading or whatever. I just meant to get her out of her cage so she isn't stuck in it all the time. And at some point once she trusts me a little more, working on stepping up with my hand or arm. I understand that's a long ways off. But on a good note, the other volunteers said when I'm not around she squawks a ton and then she quiets down as soon as I come back. So I think she's starting to miss my ugly mug when its not around. At least she's warming up to me lol. That or I'm a scary predator she feels she needs to be silent around lol. She does chatter to me and squeak and all that. So I know she doesn't hate me at least.
Bribery comes in many forms. Finding the right one can speed things up a lot.
 

BobbyC

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Bribery comes in many forms. Finding the right one can speed things up a lot.
Yeah she really likes sunflower seeds. I just try to limit how many she gets. And I do fresh fruit and stuff as well. Try to mix it up for her so it doesn't get boring. And thank you for all the advice and information. I appreciate it a ton.
 

BobbyC

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When i sit in the chair by her cage, should there be a limit on how long I sit there? Usually I only have 20-30 minutes at the rescue before something needs my attention or a volunteer needs direction. But I was thinking about going in on a day off and spending a few hours with her. Is that too long to do it? Or is there no real time limit when it comes to that?
 

BobbyC

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And I'm just saying, but if you guys charged $1 every time you offered some advice, you'd be living in the Bahamas:lolsign:
 

JLcribber

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When i sit in the chair by her cage, should there be a limit on how long I sit there? Usually I only have 20-30 minutes at the rescue before something needs my attention or a volunteer needs direction. But I was thinking about going in on a day off and spending a few hours with her. Is that too long to do it? Or is there no real time limit when it comes to that?
Spending a lot of time with her is a great thing but you must remember there are things like expectation that she will develop and possibly start to demand. They get used to what they get and if that diminishes or goes away it will cause problems. I think you have a ways to go before that will be a problem.
 

JLcribber

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It's not so much the length of interaction but the quality of the interaction. Lots of short Quality interaction actually seems to work better because their attention span is not that long
 

BobbyC

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Spending a lot of time with her is a great thing but you must remember there are things like expectation that she will develop and possibly start to demand. They get used to what they get and if that diminishes or goes away it will cause problems. I think you have a ways to go before that will be a problem.
Ok. Well I just wanted to make sure I don't overdo it. And I mix her schedule up quite a bit. Helps keep them from building those expectations. We have A LOT of exotics so I'm spread pretty thin. But I try to work with 1 or 2 as far as taming and then training. Then when that's done they usually get adopted because obviously they are tame lol. But I wouldn't mind adopting her either if she only warmed up to me and bonded really strong. Usually it doesn't get to that point before they are adopted.
 

LaSelva

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"How would you interpret that?"

Not that the video alone is alot to go by but, it appears to be a stereotypy. Without looking up the official definition, a "stereotypy" is an invariant and repeated movement/pattern that does not accomplish anything. It commonly manifests in the more intelligent species when their behaviors or behavioral needs are thwarted. For example, (social attachment in parrots is a need) a parrot confined to it's cage or one spot that is repeatedly calling to get to or to be attended by it's owners (or bonded person). When that person does not comply, as a release of pent up energy/frustration, it begins climbing the same circular pattern inside it's cage. This behavior can then become neurologically encoded in the brain. In extreme cases of deprivation repetition is a result of scarring of brain tissue such as the basal ganglia.

Therefore, a stereotypy or other PTSD type behaviors (such as feather destructive behaviors) can persist even though the living conditions of that animal have improved from those which caused the stereotypy.

It should also be noted that the idea of "flooding," or trauma learning, can and often takes place unintentionally - in addition to the way it's defined above. A captive animal often doesn't have choices and seldom understands what is happening to it, around it, etc. Remember that in captivity, one way or the other, we are "subjecting" them to what we want, and within the limits of what we know. We often cannot perceive what they will react to and how. So although most owners would claim to not use flooding or dominance methods, once we define those terms a little more realistically (broader, in other words) we find that we do to some extent. As in being caged and unable to flee a feared/unknown object. Flooding has grey areas that overlap with "habituation." And "dominance" is vaguely defined in science. It can involve a social hierarchy or simply one interaction between conspecifics.

The above illustrate the complexity of parrots and the contrast between their natural lives and the ones we've brought them into.
 
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BobbyC

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"How would you interpret that?"

Not that the video alone is alot to go by but, it appears to be a stereotypy. Without looking up the official definition, a "stereotypy" is an invariant and repeated movement/pattern that does not accomplish anything. It commonly manifests in the more intelligent species when their behaviors or behavioral needs are thwarted. For example, (social attachment in parrots is a need) a parrot confined to it's cage or one spot that is repeatedly calling to get to or to be attended by it's owners (or bonded person). When that person does not comply, as a release of pent up energy/frustration, it begins climbing the same circular pattern inside it's cage. This behavior can then become neurologically encoded in the brain. In extreme cases of deprivation repetition is a result of scarring of brain tissue such as the basal ganglia.

Therefore, a stereotypy or other PTSD type behaviors (such as feather destructive behaviors) can persist even though the living conditions of that animal have improved from those which caused the stereotypy.

It should also be noted that the idea of "flooding," or trauma learning, can and often takes place unintentionally - in addition to the way it's defined above. A captive animal often doesn't have choices and seldom understands what is happening to it, around it, etc. Remember that in captivity, one way or the other, we are "subjecting" them to what we want, and within the limits of what we know. We often cannot perceive what they will react to and how. So although most owners would claim to not use flooding or dominance methods, once we define those terms a little more realistically (broader, in other words) we find that we do to some extent. Flooding has grey areas that overlap with "habituation." And "dominance" is vaguely defined in science. It can involve a social hierarchy or simply one interaction between conspecifics.

The above illustrate the complexity of parrots and the contrast between their natural lives and the ones we've brought them into.
Well I was trying to get various opinions. Kind of like when someone gets cancer and they get multiple opinions on treatment options. For all I know someone could have experienced the same thing with their bird and might know for sure what it was.

But whenever we get a surrendered bird, we get the contact info from the owners in case we ever have a question about something. Well, if they are willing to give it to us. So out of curiosity I contacted the owner today. He said that when she would get in to something she shouldn't, he would tell her "sssst" like a hiss sound. And so one day she just picked it up and thought it was really funny. So when she bobs and wants to play she makes the sound. Funny enough thats what the rescue director thought it was too. But I talked with him for a good hour finding out more about her. He said at one point she was very trained. But he got lung cancer and because of the dust, his oxygen tank, and treatment he is going through, his doctors recommended that he give her away. So until he got around to doing it, she was kept in a spare bedroom and got almost no attention except from his son when he came over a few times a week. Apparently it took him a while to surrender her to us. He first tried selling her, and spent a few months trying, and when he couldn't and his health got worse he brought her to us. He said she's never plucked and wasn't ever much of a screamer except when she got really excited. And she's only been around men which explains why she isn't too keen on the female volunteers. But he said she used to step up just fine, wasn't a biter, and was generally pretty happy. So I'll just keep being patient with her and she will come around eventually.
 

JLcribber

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Both my cockatoos make that hissing sound. One of them also sighs. :)
 

BobbyC

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Both my cockatoos make that hissing sound. One of them also sighs. :)
That's too cute. This one also laughs. Just about made me fly out of my chair when she did it. It was loud and I wasn't expecting it. It was definitely the evil witch laugh. Birds are just the best lol.
 

BobbyC

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So. When sitting in the chair, how do I begin getting her out of the cage? Do I wait until she wants to come out on her own? Or use a stick to step up on? Currently she doesn't want to step up on a stick much. When she does, she gets off as soon as the stick moves towards the door. I'm just wondering about the steps I should be taking. You know like step one is sitting in the chair, step two, and so forth. Is there a reasonable time period for when she will come out? Like "in general" it can take a few weeks? Few months? Just curious if there's an average. I know it's up to her. And I don't want to rush it. But do you only work in their comfort zone, or do you ever go a little past it? Like if she doesn't want to step on the stick, do you keep trying, or just leave her be? In general she seems pretty happy and comfortable. She plays with most of her toys, does the beak clicking/grinding, sleeps with one foot up, makes her little squawks, doesn't pluck, etc. I think I'm going to end up adopting her. And I don't have a lot of experience with Toos and how to bond with them. Generally I work with the Macaws at the rescue because most of the volunteers are afraid of them. So my experience with the cockatoos is usually food/water/toys and showing a little attention.
 

JLcribber

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I would sit in that chair and eat sunflower seeds pretending not to share and make a big deal out of it (lots of yummy noises). If she doesn't come out yet, she doesn't trust.

When that bird is yours and in your home going forward with its own environment you can start to push past the comfort zone but I would not be using that tactic in a rescue. It's world is already close to the edge of what it can deal with.

The bird needs to learn to trust. That needs to be earned by providing trust. There aren't any shortcuts and with cockatoos its a long haul. Two steps forward. One step back.
 

lower027

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This thread is useful for me too. Not sure if the advice changes at All since my new bird is a Quaker.
 

BobbyC

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This thread is useful for me too. Not sure if the advice changes at All since my new bird is a Quaker.
I have worked with A LOT of Quakers. They are such fun birds. A lot of this can apply to all birds. If you have any questions about them you are more than welcome to ask and I can try to help.
 

BobbyC

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I would sit in that chair and eat sunflower seeds pretending not to share and make a big deal out of it (lots of yummy noises). If she doesn't come out yet, she doesn't trust.

When that bird is yours and in your home going forward with its own environment you can start to push past the comfort zone but I would not be using that tactic in a rescue. It's world is already close to the edge of what it can deal with.

The bird needs to learn to trust. That needs to be earned by providing trust. There aren't any shortcuts and with cockatoos its a long haul. Two steps forward. One step back.
Yeah so far she won't take any kind of treats from either the hand or in a bowl if its held by anyone. BUTTTTTT I decided to bring her home. And she actually seems 100 times happier already. She's talking, playing with toys, and has that "smile" that birds get. I'm still going to move slow with her. I know I need to give her time to adjust. Maybe in a few weeks I'll try some new stuff. But for now I have a computer chair by her cage. On a fun note, she seems very interested in my Ukulele lol.
 

BobbyC

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image.jpeg

She's comfortable enough to sit on her low perch near me. I'm less than a foot from her cage in this. Normally she sits on the high perch at the top of the cage around other people. So I think the move was a good thing. She's already eating and clicking/grinding her beak.
 

rocky'smom

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that does not surprise me about the ukulele, try Jimmy Buffet music too. for some reason birds really tune into it. when Rocky was still alive just putting Jimmy Buffet on the computer had him dancing and be bopping on the top of his cage.
the Iowa rescue has guitar hanging on their art wall. might want to check it out.

http://www.iowaparrotrescue.org/
 

Pied

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that does not surprise me about the ukulele, try Jimmy Buffet music too. for some reason birds really tune into it. when Rocky was still alive just putting Jimmy Buffet on the computer had him dancing and be bopping on the top of his cage./
This is adorable. My sennie foster's favorite music so far is Bob Marley. Must be the beats.
 
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