Clipping Weanlings

[Macgyver]

Hi there, I'm still in the process of finding a new lineolated parakeet to adopt. They're hard to find, and the only ones available in my area are youngsters. One breeder I spoke with stated that if the chick isn't at least partially clipped, then they don't get the "step-up onto finger" training because they live in a busy pet shop, and don't want the little ones to go flying off willy-nilly in the shop. Reading the articles and opinions on clip vs not, I thought that having a fully flighted chick would be a good thing, but I think that hand training is important too. Among those who prefer fully flighted, it is still acceptable to do a partial clip (couple primaries on each wing) to facilitate the training? Are there other options that I am not even considering? I'd like to hear some thoughtful discussion on this, please.

 

[JLcribber]

Positive reinforcement. Not coercion and handicapping. You have to "earn" trust. It's not as quick and takes more effort but it is the best way to establish a relationship.

Would you rather I offered you kindness and reward to become my friend or would you rather I just tied you to the chair until you became my friend.

 

[InTheAir]

You could take one that isn't clipped and do the training yourself. If the bird is hand raised it is pretty easy to convince them to climb on your hand for a treat.
Both my birds have always been fully flighted and one would step up when I got him. The other was pretty happy to step on me once I earned her trust a little (and gave her treats for it).

 

[Wolf]

Clipping a birds wings, especially at such a young age is detrimental to their mental and physical development, possibly with lifelong effects. We know that from a strictly scientific standpoint that living as a captive bird is extremely stressful, why would we want to add to this stress to save ourselves a day or two of effort in earning their trust? We have to put that much effort in anyway and much more. Just my take on this.

 

[jmfleish]

I'm as anti-clipping as you get but these Linnies are a really special case. They tend to really be hand shy even if you do clip at a young age and really work with them. I wouldn't say this about any other bird but with the Linnie, if you're going to buy a baby and want one who is going to be hand friendly, I'd find a good breeder who has a great reputation for raising hand friendly Linnies and I would follow her advice to a Tee.

Many birds have had their wings clipped as babies and are fine as adults. The truth of the matter is that, unless they are flying outside, they aren't getting the true experience anyway. I have a twelve year old TAG who was clipped as a baby and he's an expert flyer. My youngest RB2 who turned one in April and has never been clipped cannot even come close to matching the TAG's flying abilities. Yes, not clipping would always be my preference but sometimes you don't have a choice or you make a different choice for various reasons.

 

[Wolf]

I guess that most people would consider me to be against clipping birds wings, although I have never really given it a lot of thought. I do think that despite the added stresses of clipping there are sometimes valid reasons for clipping a birds wings, I just don't consider making things easier on us to be one of them.

 

[Monica]

I don't have experience with linnies, but I have earned the trust of parent raised, flighted birds, without the use of clipping them. One is even an ex-breeder!



I don't think clipping is necessary as long as you know how to train. If you don't know how to train a bird, then you may have difficulties regardless of the bird being flighted or clipped. If you train a clipped parrot and allow it to fly, if you did the wrong kind of training, you'll have difficulties with that bird once he or she is flighted! The only way to "solve" those difficulties is to train the bird properly, or clip the bird.... most people choose to clip because they don't know how to work *with* the bird, instead of against them.

 

[jmfleish]

I don't have experience with linnies, but I have earned the trust of parent raised, flighted birds, without the use of clipping them. One is even an ex-breeder!



I don't think clipping is necessary as long as you know how to train. If you don't know how to train a bird, then you may have difficulties regardless of the bird being flighted or clipped. If you train a clipped parrot and allow it to fly, if you did the wrong kind of training, you'll have difficulties with that bird once he or she is flighted! The only way to "solve" those difficulties is to train the bird properly, or clip the bird.... most people choose to clip because they don't know how to work *with* the bird, instead of against them.

Monica, I love your thinking but have this question...I'm a terrible trainer and generally I would agree with you. I do have birds that have never been clipped and we've been ok...ran into a few problems but worked them out. I've also had birds that were clipped as babies against my better judgement or what I wanted that went on to grow their wings out and they're good to go now. Those Linnies though...seriously hand shy...I've never been able to get around it. I've gotten them fully flighted from the breeder, every one of them because that's the way I demanded it and it never worked out. Four of them came from two really good breeders, two from one two from another...well trained and we couldn't keep them from getting hand shy...so, is it us or the species or a bit of both? Linnies are odd little guys...love them to tears, but we've decided that they call the shots, at least in our house!

 

[Monica]

As I mentioned, I don't have experience with linnies. It could very well just be their nature? Or maybe they are learning from another bird? Or maybe it's something you are doing that you're not even realizing? It's hard to say without seeing them, knowing the species more, and how they are interacted with.


I wondered for a while now, how much different parrot ownership would be, if parrot training was closer to dolphin or whale training. You can't clip a dolphin, and when in a proper aquarium, you can't chase after them, nor hold them down when they can just swim away from you. As close as we may be able to get to a parrot living like a dolphin would be a parrot in an aviary large enough for a human to walk around in, if not run in and high enough that a bird could be out of our reach. How can you make yourself appealing enough to get the bird to come to you? Mostly, food, toys or anything else the bird needs or finds intriguing.


I used food with budgies and cockatiels. I didn't mean to work with the cockatiels, but monkey see, monkey do.... if one bird (or several) is doing something, and it's intriguing, then another bird may want to join in. I went from feeding 5 adult flighted budgies, to feeding them and a cockatiel, then feeding two cockatiels, then feeding the entire tiel flock! Interestingly enough, the most skittish cockatiel (of the not-tamed tiels - also ex-breeder) is the most trusting in regards to being fed by hand, thus is the first tiel to eat from my hand when I offer food. (excluding Casey, hand raised and tame tiel!)

 

[Macgyver]

Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful comments. I've seen it written many times, clipping is detrimental to a young bird's health. I wonder if there's a difference in the bird's health if it's clipped slightly (just a couple flight feathers) vs heavily clipped (all the primaries). Does anyone have experience with both of these situations?

 

[JLcribber]

If it is a young bird that is not fully fledged then it needs every single feather to learn "skillful flying" and becomes as natural as breathing.

Give this a read. ---> Thinking on the wing

If you want to be a great bird owner. Clipping wings should not even be in your vocabulary. Clipping is for lazy people who don't want to make the effort to provide what the bird needs. Not what you want or is easiest. That is your objective.

 

[karen256]

I have a linnie and it's true they do become hand shy. I don't think it has anything to do with clipping or not clipping.

I can certainly understand why a pet store would not be comfortable with having flighted babies out much, as there's so many ways they could get lost or hurt with all the customers and activity (frightened linnies will freeze motionless and be hard to find). I've heard of a few pet stores that made accomodations for fledging babies - such as having them out for 1/2 hr before and after the store opened. Perhaps you could see if the handfeeder would be willing to work with the baby a little bit before or after store hours or perhaps during the day if the store is quiet.
The breeder may also be able to do some step up training reaching into the cage as well.
I think that if the baby is given lots of love and handling before it starts flying, and you bring it home as soon as it is weaned, it won't be too hard to teach it to step up. Yes, it will probably be handshy, but most linnies are anyway.

However, if you do choose to have the baby partially clipped so the breeder can have the baby out more, I don't think that would be terrible either. Linnies are not strong fliers compared to most other parrots. They are very heavy in proportion to their wing size so they need to fly FAST to stay in the air. At the same time, they are not very maneuverable in flight. Linnies are built to climb more than fly - at least when compared to other small parrots. Just be sure the breeder clips as little as possible.

 

[Lady Jane]

I have 2 Linnies. Female came from the breeder clipped for "training". The other one I had clipped because my thinking was they would be alike in their flying skills. It was a huge mistake to clip either one of them. They are tamed much easier if they still have the confidence flying gives them. Both are cage bound until flights grow back in. It is taking forever it seems. If I let them out all they do is jump to the floor and run under furniture. Please do not clip your Linnies wings. You will be sorry like I am. Also if you live in the US I can give you the name of my breeder. She has hens now with babies and will ship.

 

[Macgyver]

There are some good comments here, and good article, thanks! We've had just one linnie, and we never clipped her, but she came to us heavily clipped. I was not a fan of that at all, but it's tough to find someone in the area with available babies that is willing to not clip. I know I could buy a bird and have it shipped, but I can't have a bird shipped with a good conscience, JMO.

Hand shy has been mentioned a few times in this thread. At what age does this happen? Our linnie lived to 4 1/2 years old, and while I don't think she was hand shy, she did have opinions on things. For example, as her second-favorite person in the house, she would sometimes decline to come onto my hand to come out of her cage. My hand would be right in front of her on her exit perch, and she would just ignore it. Some days, she had a two-minute window of wants-to-come-out, and if I was busy in those two minutes, she would not come until her favorite person got home. (And then it was all racing to get out, excited loud tweets, and flirting, lol.) Is this what you guys are calling hand shy?

 

[Wolf]

I often wonder this same thing, as I often see a bird described as afraid of hands when the bird is not afraid of hands, it is avoiding the hands and has a valid reason for this.

 

[JLcribber]

I'm with Wolf. They're not necessarily "afraid" of hands. They're just avoiding them because hands usually do things they don't like. Hand shy is just a name.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Monica, I love your thinking but have this question...I'm a terrible trainer and generally I would agree with you. I do have birds that have never been clipped and we've been ok...ran into a few problems but worked them out. I've also had birds that were clipped as babies against my better judgement or what I wanted that went on to grow their wings out and they're good to go now. Those Linnies though...seriously hand shy...I've never been able to get around it. I've gotten them fully flighted from the breeder, every one of them because that's the way I demanded it and it never worked out. Four of them came from two really good breeders, two from one two from another...well trained and we couldn't keep them from getting hand shy...so, is it us or the species or a bit of both? Linnies are odd little guys...love them to tears, but we've decided that they call the shots, at least in our house!

You also have more than one. Like with budgies, I am thinking they are geared towards flock mentality even when handraised.

 

[karen256]

When I say hand shy, I mean that they just don't like hands even though they may have many more positive than negative experiences with hands.
Some people have said it's because they just don't seem to get that hands are part of their person who they otherwise like and trust. Linnies do have odd little personalities.
Mine is cage free (he has a cage but it's always open) and is free to do as he pleases, for the most part. His typical experiences with hands are being picked up to go to the living room for breakfast, getting a few treats by hand throughout the day, and being carried back to his room in the evening for bed sometimes (usually he flies back on his own). He was handfed. He has had very few bad experiences with hands (being restrained at the vet for a checkup and for claw trimming a few times). But he still does not like hands at all. He steps up well, but will immediately move to my wrist or arm to be carried, he can't bear to stay on my finger. If he thinks I will even try to touch him, he will start peeping in alarm and edge away. He's not afraid of me and not aggressive - he will fly over to sit on my shoulder and does not attempt to bite - he just makes it clear he doesn't like hands.
In contrast, all the budgies I've had (and budgies are often considered to be somewhat hands off birds) have had no problems at all with sitting on hands. They don't always like to be touched or petted but would usually fly to my finger when called for a little attention and would relax contentedly on my finger if I talked to them. My current budgie doesn't care to be touched or petted either but is perfectly comfortable climbing over my hands and sleeping on my finger.

 

[Milo]

Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful comments. I've seen it written many times, clipping is detrimental to a young bird's health. I wonder if there's a difference in the bird's health if it's clipped slightly (just a couple flight feathers) vs heavily clipped (all the primaries). Does anyone have experience with both of these situations?

The "light" clipping you're describing is the proper way to clip a bird's wings. You shouldn't ever clip all the primaries!

Spot is very similar to Karen's little guy. He will step up (when he feels like it) but will immediately climb to my shoulder or on top of my head. I don't have a problem moving him and he doesn't tend to get angry when I do, but he definitely prefers not to sit on my hands. Of course he's also a little atypical for a linnie, his previous owner rehomed him because he had started to attack and bully the other linnie in the cage.

 

[melissasparrots]

Hi there, I'm still in the process of finding a new lineolated parakeet to adopt. They're hard to find, and the only ones available in my area are youngsters. One breeder I spoke with stated that if the chick isn't at least partially clipped, then they don't get the "step-up onto finger" training because they live in a busy pet shop, and don't want the little ones to go flying off willy-nilly in the shop. Reading the articles and opinions on clip vs not, I thought that having a fully flighted chick would be a good thing, but I think that hand training is important too. Among those who prefer fully flighted, it is still acceptable to do a partial clip (couple primaries on each wing) to facilitate the training? Are there other options that I am not even considering? I'd like to hear some thoughtful discussion on this, please.

Keep in mine that something that is true of larger birds often is not true of smaller birds in real life practice. Generally, I'm not a fan of clipping babies until they are a few weeks post weaning. However, for a species such as a lineoated which is very prone to becoming hand-shy later in life, it might be in the bird's best interest to clip it in order to maintain that hand training. Its one of those areas where the ideal perfect world might conflict with reality of raising babies that owners are happy with. If it were a cockatoo, I'd object to clipping it. A lineoated, not so much IMO.