-
Welcome to Avian Avenue! To view our forum with less advertisments please register with us.
Memberships are free and it will just take a moment. Click here
Howard Voren
- Thread starter Gypsy
- Start date
- Joined
- 7/4/10
- Messages
- 9,292
- Real Name
- Courtney Lou Hoo
IMO, yes. I've seen pictures of his facility and it made me sad No-Fly Zone, Page 3: Inside a Parrot Mill : The Humane Society of the United States
- Joined
- 7/4/10
- Messages
- 9,292
- Real Name
- Courtney Lou Hoo
the caption on one photo says he's produced 30,000 parrots.
I don't know how his breeding set ups are, but I think the quality of care the birds receive matters much more than the quantity of birds raised. It seems like he raises mostly breeding birds and babies that are to be handfed go to different professional handfeeders where they can get more individual attention. Breeding birds who are not tame are usually quite content to live in an aviary with a mate with no human attention beyond basic care, so I wouldn't really consider it a mill if the birds receive proper care -good diet, large cage/aviary, enrichment (toys or fresh branches to shred), proper vet care), and are not overbred. He seems very knowledgable about the species he raises. Usually the larger breeders like that also do provide good vet care, a disease is more risky, and it's more economical for them to provide vet care as well, as they can afford to just have a vet come to them to check their birds rather than trying to pack up untame birds to bring them to the vet.
Of course some people would object to him selling unweaned babies to professional handfeeders. Some object to breeding for pets or handfeeding altogether, and others feel that a breeder should sell only to the pet owner so they can get a feel for the home that would be provided. I do think that that is important. All the same, I see people on this board who handfeed and raise babies that they get unweaned from breeders like this, and they clearly do care about giving them the best possible start and finding them good homes.
Now, there are places that are true bird mills. Breeding birds in small cages crowded into trailers, often without proper perches. I was at a flea market once where one vendor had birds and I feel the breeder must have been a bird mill. They were selling budgies and lovebirds by the pair - already stuffed into ridiculously tiny cages. They had about a dozen sun conures - all undersized - all stuffed into one cage with one dowel perch, seed, and water. In another cage, they had a baby blue and gold, an amazon, and a few eclectus. Those birds all looked like unweaned babies, one eclectus appeared unable to perch yet (not unhealthy, just young - I hoped). No toys, a bare minimum of dowel perches, tiny cages. THAT is a bad breeder - with stunted birds, selling unweaned birds to the public.
EDIT - Well I want to change that. He may indeed qualify as a bird mill if the pairs are in 3x4 cages and eggs are removed as they are laid. I had no knowledge of his particular set ups. Still there are some larger breeders - not as that large though - that do provide pairs with proper flight aviaries and enrichment and ensure that babies get enough attention. But Voren's set ups do look pretty sad.
Of course some people would object to him selling unweaned babies to professional handfeeders. Some object to breeding for pets or handfeeding altogether, and others feel that a breeder should sell only to the pet owner so they can get a feel for the home that would be provided. I do think that that is important. All the same, I see people on this board who handfeed and raise babies that they get unweaned from breeders like this, and they clearly do care about giving them the best possible start and finding them good homes.
Now, there are places that are true bird mills. Breeding birds in small cages crowded into trailers, often without proper perches. I was at a flea market once where one vendor had birds and I feel the breeder must have been a bird mill. They were selling budgies and lovebirds by the pair - already stuffed into ridiculously tiny cages. They had about a dozen sun conures - all undersized - all stuffed into one cage with one dowel perch, seed, and water. In another cage, they had a baby blue and gold, an amazon, and a few eclectus. Those birds all looked like unweaned babies, one eclectus appeared unable to perch yet (not unhealthy, just young - I hoped). No toys, a bare minimum of dowel perches, tiny cages. THAT is a bad breeder - with stunted birds, selling unweaned birds to the public.
EDIT - Well I want to change that. He may indeed qualify as a bird mill if the pairs are in 3x4 cages and eggs are removed as they are laid. I had no knowledge of his particular set ups. Still there are some larger breeders - not as that large though - that do provide pairs with proper flight aviaries and enrichment and ensure that babies get enough attention. But Voren's set ups do look pretty sad.
Last edited:
JLcribber
@cockatoojohn
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Shutterbugs' Best
Avenue Concierge
He invented the bird mill. A curse on his soul.
Two thumbs DOWN.
I am just stunned at the number of birds produced annually. As if the world really needed 30,000 annually when so many are abused, unwanted, and end up in rescues and sanctuaries.
I took the time to read all 5 pages of this article. I found it enlightening and sad at the same time. For Voren, it's business which means it's all about the money. Does he really need more? Maybe he should take a few tours of rescues or sanctuaries because some of the occupants may be products of his facility.
I took the time to read all 5 pages of this article. I found it enlightening and sad at the same time. For Voren, it's business which means it's all about the money. Does he really need more? Maybe he should take a few tours of rescues or sanctuaries because some of the occupants may be products of his facility.
itzmered
Welcome to Parrotdise
Super Administrator
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
While I dont know much about Howard Voreen I personally wouldn't base any opinions I would gain on him with an article written by the HSUS as they are an extreme AR group on the about the same level as PETA
A while back a member named Henpecked told me about Voren. He said that Voren supplied a lot of pet stores with birds. I also saw videos of Voren from his website showing how to hand feed baby birds. Voren is knowledgeable, but why not use that knowledge in another direction rather than producing more babies that are not really necessary when there are so many birds needing good homes.
- Joined
- 7/4/10
- Messages
- 9,292
- Real Name
- Courtney Lou Hoo
I was just reading where he says that when he retires his breeders they go to a broker to be sold and not under his name. wonder why he doesn't want anyone to know they are getting one of his birds.
- Joined
- 7/4/10
- Messages
- 9,292
- Real Name
- Courtney Lou Hoo
the photos alone were enough for me to base my opinion on. nevermind the things he actually said in the article. I'd still feel the same way if it weren't the HSUS that had posted the photos.
SandraK
Ripping up the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Avian Angel
- Joined
- 3/21/11
- Messages
- 1,000,000
- Real Name
- Sandra
This quote alone classifies him as a bird mill, no matter how fancy, clean or "humane" by his standards:
"I'm a capitalist. I'm in business. No personal relationships with the parrots."
If that isn't a bird mill, then so help me God, I'll eat my hat (though I might have to buy one first).
"I'm a capitalist. I'm in business. No personal relationships with the parrots."
If that isn't a bird mill, then so help me God, I'll eat my hat (though I might have to buy one first).
melissasparrots
Rollerblading along the road
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
I wouldn't consider someone a bird mill just because they produce a lot of birds. I'd consider them a mill if they were turning out ill birds with contagious disease or genetic defects. I also would not consider anything from HSUS reliable information. I know people that have been to his aviary and are friends with him. I've talked to Howard on the phone and have 2 of his books that give great sage advice. IMO, he is a professional aviculturist not a mill. You may disagree with the number of birds he produces, however he is a wealth of knowledge about the species he breeds both wild and captive. He does some to have a genuine fondness for the birds he produces along with a professional sense of pride in his accomplishments.
QBird
Jogging around the block
This is a tough cookie, I'm going to opt for the fence and watch this thread 
Many people fond of animals and as pets like to vilify anyone who produces such animals. My sickest and most unhealthy dogs came not from a large animal/pet producer but from back yard breeders that had no idea what they were doing! They too did it for money. And if someone does it NOTfor the money does not make them honest either. One must be diligent and get as much information as they can....sancturary/rescues also need to be looked at individually. One may be great at one time but change the dynamics ie people, burn out, lack of money, lack of motivation and they too can have a downward spiral.
I remember a video on harpy seal pups. The video showed a person clubbing the seal to death. Years later it was found that the video was staged. The people videoing the event "knew" there were poachers so staged the video. That changed how I look at situations, obtain information and donate my money. Events are not always as one thinks. When it comes to pets the stories are often sensationalized. Donate, help do what you can but also be wary and do some of your own research.
Someone comes on and says their bird withdraws...they are afraid of hands...they must have been abused. A bird with one owner, who loved that owner and that owner loved them providing well for them may also withdraw when new people come around and they can most certainly be hand shy. They are removed from their home as the owner has died and you may have one confused bird and each responds differently maybe like an abused bird.
Yes...there are bad in this world....seeing the bad in handling of pets is a start and can point an arrow towards other worse things done to other animals and humans. We cannot fix all of it but can make a difference for the one.
I remember a video on harpy seal pups. The video showed a person clubbing the seal to death. Years later it was found that the video was staged. The people videoing the event "knew" there were poachers so staged the video. That changed how I look at situations, obtain information and donate my money. Events are not always as one thinks. When it comes to pets the stories are often sensationalized. Donate, help do what you can but also be wary and do some of your own research.
Someone comes on and says their bird withdraws...they are afraid of hands...they must have been abused. A bird with one owner, who loved that owner and that owner loved them providing well for them may also withdraw when new people come around and they can most certainly be hand shy. They are removed from their home as the owner has died and you may have one confused bird and each responds differently maybe like an abused bird.
Yes...there are bad in this world....seeing the bad in handling of pets is a start and can point an arrow towards other worse things done to other animals and humans. We cannot fix all of it but can make a difference for the one.
QBird
Jogging around the block
Sadieladie1994 nicely put
JLcribber
@cockatoojohn
Avenue Veteran
Celebirdy of the Month
Mayor of the Avenue
Avenue Spotlight Award
Shutterbugs' Best
Avenue Concierge
I just want to fix one guy. Getting rid of Howard Voren (one man) would would save/prevent the lives of 100's of thousands of birds from entering the vicious cycle.
He's already produced a million birds and is a driving force in the overpopulation of parrots.
Last edited:
Thanks for making it clear John that you villainize him because he is a breeder. I do realize you are very pro rescue and against ANY type of breeding including anyone here who has bred a bird.
Great points on this thread. He seems to produce far too many birds, but at the same time he "wrote the book" (literally and figuratively) on hand feeding.
Based on his band, I believe my Jingo is a Voren bird. I cannot be sorry to have this amazing creature in my life. But wholesale breeding is indeed wholesale breeding and putting a lot of birds out there to their fates is a big responsibility to the world. Many of his birds will be fine, but many not. It is a complex issue.
Based on his band, I believe my Jingo is a Voren bird. I cannot be sorry to have this amazing creature in my life. But wholesale breeding is indeed wholesale breeding and putting a lot of birds out there to their fates is a big responsibility to the world. Many of his birds will be fine, but many not. It is a complex issue.
