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Free Flight.. is it frowned upon?

ratgirl

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So you finally let them off the harness and leash? When was that?
 

Rabb.D

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Im quite sure shanlung's tone is a matter of cultural mindset than anything personal actually... ive lived in taiwan and am fimiliar with the culture of the chinese from mainland china... i dont think hes intentionally trying to appear intellectually gaudy, its just some cultural difference, one has to appreciate.
 

Birdiemarie

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Ok, Roadies, time to get back to posting nicely to each other. Anyone continuing to share in a slap fest will have their posts deleted without notice so we can keep this thread open. :smilesign:
 

LaSelva

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LaSelva, I thought about modal action patterns a lot today. It occurred to me that species with higher intelligence, have it because they need it. A brain is an expensive thing. Usually that means they have a more complex ethology. Which also means they have more to teach their young to survive, and usually a longer natal period. Birds like corvids and parrots come to mind immediately.

I would think this would give them more flexibility in their MAPs. But then, even birds who fledge from a nest cavity and immediately fly, have to learn, and quickly, to fly better. When you look at the survival rate of fledglings, it's really low. Lower in the less intelligent species who don't spend a lot of time teaching the young. They compensate by producing larger clutches, or more of them. Species like corvids and parrots invest a lot more time into one or two offspring, for a much longer time. Families may stay together for years.


Havent forgotten about this as you've given me a lot to think about yourself with this very relevant point. Certainly parrots and corvids spring to mind but there are also mammals as well as marine-mammals that inherit a culture from their parents. As well as spend an extended period of time learning it. For example, from "Spix's Macaw" by Toni Juniper:

"It was seen as essential that he leave some cultural lifeline behind him so that young macaws released later could be integrated into a wild existence. For species like parrots, which learn a lot of their behavior and gain crucial knowledge from their parents and other flock members, the situation would be especially difficult. The last wild Spix's knew where to find water in the dry season, it knew which seeds and fruits were good to eat, and it knew where to get them. The macaw knew where the cats and owls hid and from where the hawks were most likely to attack. The last parrot was a vital cultural lifeline....... "

There are countless examples. But, upon considering captive animals, I can't help but note that (at the same time) it's the more intelligent ones that pose a greater challenge to providing good captive welfare.
 

Sadieladie1994

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Havent forgotten about this as you've given me a lot to think about yourself with this very relevant point. Certainly parrots and corvids spring to mind but there are also mammals as well as marine-mammals that inherit a culture from their parents. As well as spend an extended period of time learning it. For example, from "Spix's Macaw" by Toni Juniper:

"It was seen as essential that he leave some cultural lifeline behind him so that young macaws released later could be integrated into a wild existence. For species like parrots, which learn a lot of their behavior and gain crucial knowledge from their parents and other flock members, the situation would be especially difficult. The last wild Spix's knew where to find water in the dry season, it knew which seeds and fruits were good to eat, and it knew where to get them. The macaw knew where the cats and owls hid and from where the hawks were most likely to attack. The last parrot was a vital cultural lifeline....... "

There are countless examples. But, upon considering captive animals, I can't help but note that (at the same time) it's the more intelligent ones that pose a greater challenge to providing good captive welfare.
If they are this intelligent in the wild would not that intelligence transfer to captivity? And in captivity would they not learn how to survive in that environment as well?
 

LaSelva

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That's the question. I posed it in the other thread where the discussion began, when I asked, "where do we draw the line?" Meaning the limit to their adaptive threshold, to alter behaviors meant for (and adapted by) a different world. Captivity is largely an unstudied phenomena that comes in many different forms. The typical household is just one - although could be the most common. But to answer I can probably give lots of reasons why they wouldn't, examples where they have, as well as examples of stress. I could ask why a documentary such as Parrot Confidential even exists if there isn't an issue.

Could it be possible that the leeway for the altering of innate complex behaviors involves a different mechanism than the one that involves the learning of new behaviors under novel situations?

And then we also have problems with the scientific definition of intelligence. I was using it in the general sense of altricial species that spend more time under the care of their parents - I think that me and ratgirl had that understanding here.

In science a "species" adapts. And this is a slow process of genetic change brought on by natural selection. Individual adaptability is not so clearly defined and probably also includes categories such as generalist or specialist. We can consider Pigeons and House-Sparrows, both pretty much found the world over. I can go on and on about species that are common throughout New York and found all the way down through South America (Egrets, Herons, Kingfishers, Ospreys, etc.) overlapping parrot habitat. Yet parrots for the most part seem to fit the definition of specialist species quite well. And aside from populations in the states that have been released (no effort of their own) most parrots are found in a narrow environment and you have to go out of your way to see them in the natural world. Also we can consider the ratio of established populations of parrots to the number of species that have been lost or escaped? One would think we would have naturalized populations of African Greys, Budgies, Cockatoos, etc.

Meanwhile in the wild degradation of habitat is a major contributor to their status as endangered species. In Belize the building of a dam and the subsequent flooding of just one part of the rainforest has doomed the Scarlet Macaw population there to inevitable extinction through fragmentation and vulnerability. In the north of Costa Rica one can observe Great Green Macaws as well as get a sense of how much of their habitat (of enormous wild almond and other trees) is surrounded by grazing fields and human development.

And what of the so called less intelligent species of animals that are kept quite easily in captivity such as sheep or finches perhaps?

There are a lot of considerations in this type of discussion.
 
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Sadieladie1994

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Go to people. Different environments and adaptation. Indians who roamed vs those that maintained the same home. Farmers vs "city folk". There is always change and adaptation.
 

pajarita

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If they are this intelligent in the wild would not that intelligence transfer to captivity? And in captivity would they not learn how to survive in that environment as well?
I am no expert on these things but, it would seem to me that adaptation for survival in a completely foreign environment for animals would depend on having strong, healthy individuals which we don't have in captivity because of the lack of natural selection, and sheer numbers -if you have a flock of 100 birds, you would have better chances of finding one that 'figures' out where to find food, water, shelter, etc than if you have one or two birds that got lost. But, apparently, it also depends on the way their brain is wired for survival in their own natural habitat because I've read several times that global warming will kill off more tropical bird species than the ones in other climates because they simply will not be able to extend their territories - apparently, the possibility of looking farther for food and water doesn't quite click for them...
 

ratgirl

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Havent forgotten about this as you've given me a lot to think about yourself with this very relevant point. Certainly parrots and corvids spring to mind but there are also mammals as well as marine-mammals that inherit a culture from their parents. As well as spend an extended period of time learning it. For example, from "Spix's Macaw" by Toni Juniper:

"It was seen as essential that he leave some cultural lifeline behind him so that young macaws released later could be integrated into a wild existence. For species like parrots, which learn a lot of their behavior and gain crucial knowledge from their parents and other flock members, the situation would be especially difficult. The last wild Spix's knew where to find water in the dry season, it knew which seeds and fruits were good to eat, and it knew where to get them. The macaw knew where the cats and owls hid and from where the hawks were most likely to attack. The last parrot was a vital cultural lifeline....... "

There are countless examples. But, upon considering captive animals, I can't help but note that (at the same time) it's the more intelligent ones that pose a greater challenge to providing good captive welfare.

Regarding the Toni Juniper quote, I often wonder if you raised and released a population of birds that intelligent, and they somehow survive, would we even recognize them as the same species from a behavioral standpoint? Like imagining 'releasing' a bunch of children raised with no exposure to language, etc. What would they come up with, if they did?

I fully agree with you that the more intelligent a species, the harder it is to do them justice in captivity. I try hard with my parrots, but I continue to hope to improve, because for me, so far, it's never enough. Even outdoor free flight doesn't compare to the level of exercise these supreme athletes are evolved for.

I also wonder if you could give a wild animal a choice, and they really were able to understand that choice, would they choose captivity with the lack of predators and never ending food, or not? You can see that WE didn't!
 

ratgirl

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If they are this intelligent in the wild would not that intelligence transfer to captivity? And in captivity would they not learn how to survive in that environment as well?

Like LaSelva said, it depends on how you define 'intelligence'. Animals, us included, are only as intelligent as we need to be! Brains are really expensive, and some species have very narrow kinds of foods they eat, that are readily available. You don't usually need a lot of smarts as we think of them to live like that. On the other hand, if you eat a wide array of foods, that are available in different places at different times, etc., you can see how much harder you may need to think.

Plus, if that once abundant food runs out, and there isn't any more in the area, and the animal can't survive on a different food, it won't matter how smart it is.

We can adapt so easily because we can artificially warm ourselves with shelters and clothing, eat a wide variety of things, and we have thumbs. I don't care how smart dolphins are, maybe smarter than us, they can't get out of the ocean if they need to. Things like that. So some animals ability to adapt is limited.
 

LaSelva

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Interesting. You know how I look at parrots and predation personally? My analogy is this: We drive every day; to work, the supermarket, etc. We probably see a car accident every day. Parrots live under a similar threat of predation. Do we worry about the very real threats of being on the road? Drunk drivers, people running red lights. No. We follow the "rules" of the road and therefore we drive relaxed, listen to the radio, etc. We don't have stress, anxiety, or panic attacks behind the wheel. Well, the rules parrots live by keep them safe in much the same way. Rules that comprise their social behavior....having lookouts, flocking (many eyes, large numbers confusing to a predator trying to single out one bird, etc.).

This is an interesting post by Dr. Don Brightsmith, head of research at Tambopata:

"Recently I was asked what animals prey on parrots in the wild. I guess the short answer to that is . . . not much. In general parrots are quite wary and do a number of things to make sure that they are not captured by predators. They usually feed in groups high in the tree canopies. The high perches and large groups ensures that there are many eyes to spot predators and then an easy escape as they drop from the tall trees. Parrot nests also seem to be chosen to reduce the risk of predation. Most species in predator rich environments, especially the macaws I work with, prefer to nest in high trees in relatively exposed spots from which the adults can watch for danger and take flight quickly if needed. Those species that nest in the forest understory where they are more vulnerable take great precautions to avoid being captured when they return to their nests. I have watched three such species in the wild as they approach their nests, the Cobalt-winged Parakeet, Tui Parakeet and the Gray-cheeked Parakeet. All three of these birds are normally loud and raucous (those who own them as pets will back me up on this one I am sure). They call constantly when in flight, and usually even continue to chatter while feeding. But when they return to their nests it is a very different matter. They arrive and perch in a tree some 30 to 60 ft or more away from their nests. From this point on they are almost completely silent. They fly quietly to a perch in the canopy directly above the nest, never flying directly to the nest entrance. From their vantage point in the canopy they check the area then slowly descend through the dense tropical vegetation until they arrive at the hole in the termite nest or tree hole that they call home."

We tend to emphasize parrots as prey animals but even a bald eagle can fall prey to a bobcat, or a vulture to a lion. Birds in general are delicate - and they know it, even if instinctively (like a horse that doesn't step into unsure ground). Their light bodies, hollow bones, etc. cannot withstand a blow. Mammals, on the other hand can be thick boned and heavily muscled. Flight, as well as being up high is their protection as well as security (possibly interpreted as height dominance by people). The benefit of having a crop and gizzard is that they can gulp down food, quickly leave the ground, and chew it (internally) later. I've seen parrots eat clay not on the lick but in a tree. They chip off a piece and fly into a tree to eat there...first at the lick and then to a tree (hopefully you can see the clay in some of their beaks in the pics).

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ratgirl

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Yeah, I don't think parrots consciously think about predation much. What I mean is, IF you could somehow explain the abundant food and safety, and they could understand it, would they choose captivity? Some of the parrots that were in holding enclosures in the jungles of South America, managed to find holes to get out of. Those birds would fly around during the day, but return to the cages at night to eat and sleep. I think once parrots make it past that critical first year, they aren't hugely preyed on. At that point, nest sites become a much bigger issue. I think it was Dr. Brightsmith's group that witnessed a Green Wing pair pull Scarlet chicks from a nest and steal it :-( Nature, ain't always pretty.

One of these years I'm going to do the Tambopata trip. Several of my friends have. I hear the different species generally get on fine at the clay lick. Until the caiques show up! I'd love to see Mealy amazons in the wild too. I can see several of them in that top picture. Underrated birds, probably because they aren't as brightly colored as some of the other amazons. But the ones I've met have great personalities.
 

LaSelva

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Beautiful in the wild, arent they? I hope you get to go. Being in the jungle is a surreal experience.

As Dr. Brightsmith himself said, "nature has its own rules." I have read, on the Macaw Project website, that a competing pair will throw another pair's chicks out of a coveted nest hole. And that, among the Scarlet Macaws being studied, sometimes parents will focus care on one favored chick while allowing another to starve. This is actually confirmed by nest box cams.

At the onset of the macaw project a group of such chicks were removed from nests and hand raised. They were free and semi-tame and became known as the "chicos," meaning, "kids." Some mated with each other and some took wild mates. There are some that show up at the lodge regularly at mealtimes looking for food (which guests and staff happily provide). Their more wary mate and offspring waiting in the trees above. They integrated into the wild well and this seems similar to the life your describing. But they stopped raising chicks shortly thereafter because they did not anticipate how tame they'd be. As a healthy fear of humans is necessary for the safety of wildlife. Theres one example of this - there were two that showed up in Cusco (probably looking for handouts) and were beaten. Because of permanent injuries they now reside at a sanctuare there.

I understand your hypothetical question. I think wildlife can be free yet accustomed to certain comforts they can get from us. As well as happy doing so - but I don't think that in reality it's a good idea. There was a tame dolphin in the Gulf of Mexico that boaters would feed. This killed the dolphin through dehydration as they get their water from the natural food they eat - fish.
 
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ratgirl

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I have always wondered why the scarlets visit the camp, but the blue and golds never do. I hadn't heard that any had been injured by people. That just sucks :-(
 

LaSelva

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Study at Tambopata focuses on Scarlet macaws. When I asked why I was told it was because B&G's favor habitat and trees that are less accessible. For example, their softwood palm trees grow in wet, swampy areas nor can these trees support the cables required to access and monitor chicks. Also, Scarlet macaws readily use artificial nest boxes (granting access to developing chicks) while B&G's don't. Neither do Great Green Macaws in Costa Rica for that matter. The varying habitat preferences among species is so interesting.

I spent an enormous amount of time hiking while there - being back at the lodge only for mealtimes (and some of them I missed) and to sleep. So, although I heard about the "chicos" I had never seen one. One afternoon, me and my guide arrived just before lunch from an early morning excursion. After a much needed shower I strolled over to the main area, made myself coffee and just hung out there relaxing. Then to my surprise one showed up (apparently too early, look at him checking out the empty table...lol). We gave him a piece of fruit. Their stories, mates, identifying features, etc. are well documented and the binder gives that information to interested tourists. Some are spotted more frequently than others. So, these are the visitors, the semi-tame macaws raised by humans at the onset of the MacawProject. Feeding wildlife in the Amazon is illegal and Rainforest Expeditions is very responsible in holding to that and to what is beneficial to wildlife. So, it should be clear that, although they have assimilated into wild flocks, these were not wild birds enticed to approach the lodge.



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LaSelva

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Visiting nest box sites (hiking to the trees they are in) is also a good way to catch a somewhat closer glimpse of macaws. Even outside of the nesting season a bonded pair will return to its nest to roost every evening. These types of sightings can be counted on a bit more than at the clay lick which is very weather dependent. I've waited on overcast days for hours (up at 4:30 am) watching Macaws, Amazons, and flocks of parakeets gather in the mist. Very high in the trees. But unless it's a clear day, eventually little by little they decide to leave.


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shanlung

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Last posting before jumping into the taxi.

This time the free flights were done in Indonesia.
By folks who listen to their birds and at end of long process which started with listening to their birds and ended with them listening to their birds.
Not done by a group specially selected by some self styled guru who finished a course by his/her heros.

But by a simple group of peasant-like folks, like those in Taiwan, who allowed their birds to train them.


FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD.

facebook video below
 

LaSelva

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"The eye--it cannot choose but see;
We cannot bid the ear be still;
Our bodies feel, where'er they be,
Against or with our will.

Nor less I deem that there are Powers
Which of themselves our minds impress;
That we can feed this mind of ours
In a wise passiveness."

These words, from William Wordsworth, that I first read back in college are far better than what I could come up with to express what I've always felt it means to truly learn from and love nature. To passively watch and listen as all of it impresses its lessons upon our senses. A lesson I learned as a child when I realised I knew more than most about the behavior of pigeons and sparrows - simply because I was content gazing out of my apartment window at (what seemed like) nothing. And its the reason I travel to where parrots live. To be in, feel the sights and sounds of their world. To see them live the life they were meant to live. This is how they teach us in the truest sense. Granted, as an adult, I supplement that with whatever research is available to me. But it has nothing to do with forcefully taking beings out of their world and bringing them into ours, manipulating them, caging them, tying them to ropes. Once we've done that (we have that power as humans) we are free to then interpret our relationship with them in whichever way pleases us (and these are just words coming from the dominant human). Science acknowledges that we are limited in what we can learn from an animal outside it's natural habitat, and actually does compare it to studying normal human behavior in a prison.

Shanlung, I took a look at some of the pictures you linked to on your other thread, where you recently posted. I urge you not to ever offer your animals cigarettes. Here's a link you should read: Smoking Around Your Birds

P1150854 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

P1150855 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

P1150847 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
 

ratgirl

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I've been missing out while I was out of town! Beautiful pictures, LaSelva. A trip to Tambopata is definitely on my list of must go places. Have you been on the IPP trip to Seram yet? That's another I don't plan to miss. And here's where I'd be going this year, if I had the time and funds; Avian Behavior International | Ecotours

For now, I'm going to have to content myself with weather breaks when I can fly the boys outside. But I'd love to see them in the wilds of Bolivia. Some day...
 

sinz jays

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Last posting before jumping into the taxi.

This time the free flights were done in Indonesia.
By folks who listen to their birds and at end of long process which started with listening to their birds and ended with them listening to their birds.
Not done by a group specially selected by some self styled guru who finished a course by his/her heros.

But by a simple group of peasant-like folks, like those in Taiwan, who allowed their birds to train them.


FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.
NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD.

facebook video below
Free flight is a lifestyle, and not for everyone, but if you can do it, have the right bird, good training, and the nerves to handle it, it can be great fun
 
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