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wings (cut them or not)

Kiwibird08

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The main reason why I support unclipped wings is the health of my birds. They have super high metabolisms, and eat a lot. But when they don't get the energy out, that food turns to fat. Like in people, when you are overweight, your life expectancy is shorter. I want my birds to have healthy bodies - because I'd like them to live long lives with me.

Now, when it comes to the harness, I completely agree that it is unnatural. However, the aviator harness (the only one I really like) isn't super constricting, and you can get a flight line to allow them to fly around safely outside.

Birds are extremely delicate. Lots of things can hurt them. I try to use methods which will allow the least amount of risk.

Honestly, us having pet birds in itself is not natural. No matter how well we take care of our birds, it will never be like nature.
I used to hold very similar views, but I have become more open minded with Kiwi because he is so vastly different than any other parrot I've ever interacted with. I very much try to keep in mind now that birds are unique individuals and not all the same. I will tell you right now, flight is not necessarily the "most natural" thing for a bird who's never flown either. We prepped for months doing daily flapping exercises to build up his muscles, tried 3 different methods to get him to fly and it was disastrous. It traumatized and/or frustrated him and there was just no willingness, ability or desire to learn. We finally decided he was best left clipped and to focus on other things. He eats a healthy diet and maintains a perfectly healthy (for his species) 420 grams. And just because he doesn't fly doesn't mean he's inactive! He's insanely active, always upside down, hanging by one toe and swinging from something or climbing up something (doesn't need vet wrap on ANYTHING), has (supervised) time every day to run on the floor and daily flapping exercises. I also intentionally give foraging that is very difficult to reach so he HAS to practice his birdy acrobatics to get his treat. I've seen bigger perch potatoes that could fly than my guy who can't! That has a lot to do with the opportunities provided to the bird and whether the owner allows/ doesn't care if their bird just sits there and does nothing (ever seen those birds with stripped down cages and no 'area' outside the cage to play in/on? Probably fed a mostly seed diet too! Those are the ones who get fat.).

I really do believe it boils down to common sense and truly knowing your bird as an individual. I think people run into trouble when they fail to assess their individual situation thoroughly. ASSUMING your bird won't fly off when you take it outside on your shoulder, while your on the phone not paying attention because "he loves me so much" is stupid and you absolutely run a very high risk of loosing the bird. KNOWING your birds history of no-flight and holding his feet outdoors, and UNDERSTANDING that clipped wings do not mean no flight at all, which is what I do carries a much lower risk, and IMO, is no more dangerous than a flighted bird sustaining injury indoors. I also used to know a guy who had carried his fully flighted macaw around everywhere on his shoulder for over 25 years and his bird never left him.

As for a harness, Kiwi doesn't really like to be restricted. He's a big outdoors fan, so we have a Celltei Pak-o-bird for him now. We used to live in a rather 'flat' area with no trees he could get stuck in and he used to run freely in the grass. Now that we live in Oregon where theres huge trees everywhere we have the bird backpack. Safe and secure for longer outdoor excursions and car rides/going out in public.
 

Bokkapooh

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Pro flighted here.

With positive reinforcement, a bird who doesnt know it can fly will learn it does have wings and it can fly.

:)
 
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Nikomania

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No clipping. Even though I temporarily (Thank God!) lost my little Skittles for several days when he was spooked and flew out the back door, I'd still say 'no clipping'. I enjoy having them fly around whenever they want.
 

MyAussieFriends

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No clipping. Even though I temporarily (Thank God!) lost my little Skittles for several days when he was spooked and flew out the back door, I'd still say 'no clipping'. I enjoy having them fly around whenever they want.
Perhaps his being flighted actually helped in him surviving. With flight, he could fly away with ease from predators.
 

Karen

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Let them fly!

Should you clip your parrot

My wish is that someday us humans will adapt to having a bird rather than the bird adapt to having humans.

Since the dawn of mankind, humans have watched them, studied
them, have desired to emulate that which they do.FLY!


Isn't it mysterious that the thing we so desired, we are so
willing to take away from that exact creature which originally gave us
our inspiration.


Gay Noeth 2004
 

pajarita

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I used to hold very similar views, but I have become more open minded with Kiwi because he is so vastly different than any other parrot I've ever interacted with. I very much try to keep in mind now that birds are unique individuals and not all the same. I will tell you right now, flight is not necessarily the "most natural" thing for a bird who's never flown either. We prepped for months doing daily flapping exercises to build up his muscles, tried 3 different methods to get him to fly and it was disastrous. It traumatized and/or frustrated him and there was just no willingness, ability or desire to learn. We finally decided he was best left clipped and to focus on other things. He eats a healthy diet and maintains a perfectly healthy (for his species) 420 grams. And just because he doesn't fly doesn't mean he's inactive! He's insanely active, always upside down, hanging by one toe and swinging from something or climbing up something (doesn't need vet wrap on ANYTHING), has (supervised) time every day to run on the floor and daily flapping exercises. I also intentionally give foraging that is very difficult to reach so he HAS to practice his birdy acrobatics to get his treat. I've seen bigger perch potatoes that could fly than my guy who can't! That has a lot to do with the opportunities provided to the bird and whether the owner allows/ doesn't care if their bird just sits there and does nothing (ever seen those birds with stripped down cages and no 'area' outside the cage to play in/on? Probably fed a mostly seed diet too! Those are the ones who get fat.).

I really do believe it boils down to common sense and truly knowing your bird as an individual. I think people run into trouble when they fail to assess their individual situation thoroughly. ASSUMING your bird won't fly off when you take it outside on your shoulder, while your on the phone not paying attention because "he loves me so much" is stupid and you absolutely run a very high risk of loosing the bird. KNOWING your birds history of no-flight and holding his feet outdoors, and UNDERSTANDING that clipped wings do not mean no flight at all, which is what I do carries a much lower risk, and IMO, is no more dangerous than a flighted bird sustaining injury indoors. I also used to know a guy who had carried his fully flighted macaw around everywhere on his shoulder for over 25 years and his bird never left him.

As for a harness, Kiwi doesn't really like to be restricted. He's a big outdoors fan, so we have a Celltei Pak-o-bird for him now. We used to live in a rather 'flat' area with no trees he could get stuck in and he used to run freely in the grass. Now that we live in Oregon where theres huge trees everywhere we have the bird backpack. Safe and secure for longer outdoor excursions and car rides/going out in public.
Well, individuality is a given with parrots but their physiological needs do not change because they have different personalities. Birds need to fly because it's the way nature made them and whether the bird is outgoing or shy, clumsy or agile, loving or aloof is not going to make any difference in this. There is no exercise that gets anywhere near what flight provides for them because their entire body is geared toward it and nothing else. Walking, climbing, playing, even flapping wings furiously don't do it for them when it comes to exercise. Nature is a thrifty master and doesn't waste resources in overlapping so, if everything can get 'taken care of' with one single activity, that is the one and only she will give - and, for birds, it's flight.

You are right that flight might not be the most natural thing there is to birds that were never allowed to fly but, even when the action itself is not initiated consciously (as in going from point A to point B), the reflex is still there (a startled bird that has been deprived of flight his entire life would still try to fly away). This reflex doesn't accomplish anything because of atrophy but atrophied muscles and shrunken tendons are not what one would call natural, either. And atrophy is not healthy. There are studies on this - about muscle deterioration after only 40 days of not flying, of muscle activity been less than 10% when flapping wings (and these birds were climbing up a hill while flapping their wings so imagine how little utilization your bird is getting by flapping his wings while been held by the toes), of atrophy of tendons, air sacs, etc. It's like a paraplegic... even if the person was born without working legs, the body is still affected by the lack of its primary mode of transportation in ways we able-bodied people don't even begin to realize (insomnia, sensory perception, bladder and bowel control, digestion, circulation, blood pressure, headaches, bone demineralization, etc).

You talk about how other parrots live in empty cages, never going out or going out with a distracted owner, fed seeds, etc establishing a comparison with how good your parrot has it (and I am not doubting for one second that your parrot does have good and loving care) but there are people who keep flighted parrots who don't take stupid risks, give them toys, a good diet, good lights, good schedules, etc. Just because one believes in flight doesn't mean one is not a conscientious owner in other respects... in a way, one could say that making all the household and personal lifetstyle changes necessary to keep a bird flighted and safe is one of the highest markers of good parrot husbandry because Lord knows it's not easy to achieve this and it does require a lot of personal sacrifice.
 

Kiwibird08

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You talk about how other parrots live in empty cages, never going out or going out with a distracted owner, fed seeds, etc establishing a comparison with how good your parrot has it (and I am not doubting for one second that your parrot does have good and loving care) but there are people who keep flighted parrots who don't take stupid risks, give them toys, a good diet, good lights, good schedules, etc. Just because one believes in flight doesn't mean one is not a conscientious owner in other respects... in a way, one could say that making all the household and personal lifetstyle changes necessary to keep a bird flighted and safe is one of the highest markers of good parrot husbandry because Lord knows it's not easy to achieve this and it does require a lot of personal sacrifice.
You have taken what I said and completely twisted it. I said there are less active birds out there who have bad owners yet still have the ability to fly. Keeping your bird flighted has no bearing on being a good owner, you could be a very good owner with a flighted bird or a very neglectful one. My whole point is people are all about jumping all over someone else while not acknowledging they take risks too and/or that the risks they take are more "acceptable" for some reason. I grew up with fully flighted birds. I watched one, who was normally a highly skilled flyer, smash into walls/windows when frightened because she panicked. What is an owner to do? Magically move walls because a wild animal walked past the window and spooked the bird? Lock the bird in a cage 24/7? Cover the windows up and remove her (and the other birds who do not easily scare) ability to see into the outside world? Which do you suggest would be a "lifestyle change to accommodate flight" in that situation? And how is that a more acceptable risk of death or injury than holding on securely (not allowing to roam freely) a clipped bird outside? Theres a risk in BOTH, only I see the risk I take, staunch flight supporters overwhelmingly refuse to acknowledge that they take any risks at all allowing their bird to fly in a most unnatural environment (house) and that's what bothers me. In general, I support flighted birds whenever possible. Curious how many stubborn adult birds who never learned to fly, may have never observed other birds fly, no treat is enticing enough to encourage to take the first "hop that you've taught to become masterful flyers? If you have, please do share your methods. And even though my bird has never attempted flight, I still cover the toilet, keep him out of the kitchen when cooking, close doors when he's out keep, windows shut, supervise him when he's away from his "bird proof" area.... It's not like I turn him loose in the backyard every morning and come back at nightfall hoping he's still out there!
 

pajarita

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Yes, of course you can be a bad owner and still allow flight but, if you do, it's one point in your favor because regardless of anything else that might be wrong with your husbandry, flight benefits the bird. It's just one more 'category', if you will, on the good husbandry requisite list.

As to those seemingly unpreventable crashing accidents people always mention when speaking of allowing a 'clumsy' bird to fly, I'll be 100% honest with you and I hope you don't think I am attacking you because it's not only about you but also all the other people who make this comment: I always have a hard time understanding why or how these happen because I've kept a large number of flighted birds for many years and none (and I do mean ZERO) of them ever crashed into anything once they learned to master flight. The new ones that had not been allowed flight do have a couple of very mild accidents when they first start but they all learned and never again crashed. But even if my birds got spooked and crashed against a wall in their panic, I still would not clip them... it's over-reacting, if you ask me. I mean, mothers don't tie their toddler's legs together because they fall when they run around even though sometimes they split their lips open, scrape their knees, get a giant goose egg on their forehead and end up with bruises all over...

I do have two birds that don't fly, a LSC and a YCA. The too because he must have been clipped when a baby and kept like that for years (he was 21 when I got him and the couple that had him for the previous 19 years said he had never flown -his right wing Xray showed an old fracture but I don't know if that is the reason) and, although I don't really know the reason for the zon not to fly she came to me already old, in terrible physical shape (advanced liver damage as well as kidney) and from a bad situation on which I have very little info (the owner died, was found three days later, and the housekeeper called Animal Control on the 30+ animals she kept in the basement). Freddy (the too) walks and climbs like a champ but his tendons are so shrunken and his muscles so atrophied after so many years that trying to reverse the damage is no longer possible, and I would not even try with the zon because she is touch and go health-wise and does not need the stress. But all the other ones learned on their own without any intervention on my part. I did nothing but let them loose in the birdroom. They get tired easily and are not good at landing or maneuvering when they first start but slowly and surely they get stronger and better at it. Just one example: I took in a seven year old female Senegal which had been allowed to fledge when a baby but, as she was aggressive to her previous owner's wife, she had been kept clipped for a number of years (needless to say, it did not work and that's why they ended up giving her up). When she first came, she would stay on my shoulder all the time and take very short, straight flights when she had no choice and ended up with labored breathing every time but now (3 years later), she is a little Red Baron and although she still spends half her time on me, she flies around the other half and she can make a U turn in a space that barely accommodates her wingspan, fly up and down the stairs (from the 1st to the 3rd floor), take corners at high speed and land on a dime (and on my shoulder without even touching anything but my shoulder) and her breathing doesn't even change! It just takes practice, that's all.
 

lupe

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Yatiyatiyati....we all have our opinions and thus this is by far THE MOST controversial topic between bird parronts..bottom line..you have to choose what ever works for you and your lifestyle. .there is no right or wrong in my book..However. .I will tell you this..my U2 is fully flighted and it fits my lifestyle. .to me..it's much harder and requires 100 percent vigilance..in other words. .it's more work!!..is it worth it to me..Hell.. yes!!.I have a healthy parrot who DOES what he was born to do..he owns his birthright. ...
 

jmfleish

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I'm also pro flight and regardless of whether or not the bird is clipped, I'm always going to say, do not take the risk of taking any bird, clipped or fully flighted outside without some kind of restraint. I've heard and seen too many clipped birds who have never flown before get spooked and go further than anyone could even imagine. The scariest one was a clipped B&G Macaw who took off suddenly and flew several hundred feet and ended up in the middle of a very busy street and almost got hit by a car.

Flight indoors has very few problems once the bird actually learns the obstacles and there are ways to avoid the issues. We keep our windows covered all the time and don't have problems with our birds running into them. You can teach a bird about windows too. Everything about a bird is about flight and more and more, we are learning that exercise is so important and we cannot recreate the exercise they get in flight, even the flight in our living room. Too many birds are dying too young from heart disease and strokes. My choice will always be to leave a bird flighted.

Having said that, it is a very personal decision and I have stopped trying to convince others what is better other than the basics!:)
 

Laurul Feather Cat

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Birds are NOT extremely delicate. Lots of things can hurt them, that is true. I do not trim wings. Yes, I had a flighted bird kill herself flying into a window. I learned my lesson, I do not leave uncovered windows or mirrors around the birds. Birds are born to fly. No way am I keeping them unflighted.
 

mindee77

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Thanks for all the great feed back. I too belive birds should be able to fly around.. I guess I am use to my little birds just flying everywhere. They all know when its their time and off they go. We got our baby girl which is a African Gray and she can fly but I wish she had more space to fly they are big birds so I am extra careful with her when she fly's.. I only wish I could calm down and just watch her fly..
 

mindee77

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She seams to get tired really fast. When she decides to fly she takes off really strong but than gets tired really fast and than she starts to go down and doesn't know where to land so she tries to find a safe spot but most times she hits a wall or crash lands. Its frustrating when I bought her the pet store cut her wings because they told me she was starting to coast and she was too big to be flying around a house and she would get hurt. So I was new to this breed of birds but all my other birds at home flew.. So we are slowing working with her.. After she crashes she always says"Woooo that was SCARY!!
 

Aequa

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I don't understand why some issues cause arguments ): As with anything, it's up to you. There is contradicting 'facts' and stories. Personally, I tend to leave my birds flighted, I love watching them fly. My Princess Parrot and I went to a lot of trouble to teach him to fly! Currently 2 of my conures are clipped having bought them clipped, one really cannot fly far at all and the other only has a light clip meaning she simply cannot fly against resistance (ie. up to the fan). Due to that light clip working so well and my male seeking out my partner to attack him now, I also have lightly clipped him. This just means I can have the fan on and them out, in such a tiny, open unit, this is so vital. I won't be clipping again until probably next Summer depending on our living situation. I'm dying for my bird room so I don't have to worry about it again :) All that said, my guys are happy and healthy. If I felt one was depressed, I'd be doing everything to fix it. But they are all little nutters and love to play, eat lots of different things and go crazy. Only the male ever flies without a spook and he has no issue except with gaining height against resistance :) saying that, I need to be much more cautious about the dogs, the birds cannot get away as easily. So yeah, my 2 cents, 3 out of 4 of my birds have come clipped. 3 out of 4 boarders were bought clipped and remained clipped. All 6 were very, very happy little guys. Always using their wings. Both flighted ones were also very happy and very crazy ^_^
My thoughts summed up, if you can keep them flighted, do it! If you can't, it's not the end of the world :)
 

Laurul Feather Cat

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Birds are hatched with the desire to fly, but not the actual knowledge of HOW to fly; they need to learn through trial, error and doing. The period of time that baby birds learn to fly is called fledging. I loved watching my cockatiel chicks learn to fly. They would launch themselves into the air, beating their wings strongly and then realize they didn't know how to land! They had no idea how to slow down or steer and inevitably crashed. But their bodies are built for that with their ribs, wings and legs mostly being made of cartilage and not really hard bone yet. Birds also have to build up the flight muscles and their bodies learn how to adjust their breathing while they develop strength and endurance in their flight.

The hen bird continued to care for the babies in and around the nest, but the cock bird would follow the fledglings around while they learned to fly, encouraging them to keep trying and feeding them mouthfuls of food for energy. It was always a very special time in the year when they fledged. I enjoyed it immensely. Later, after the youngsters were flying strongly, I would trim the first two flight feathers on each wing to slow them down a little and help them learn to land. I miss fledging the babies.
 

pajarita

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She seams to get tired really fast. When she decides to fly she takes off really strong but than gets tired really fast and than she starts to go down and doesn't know where to land so she tries to find a safe spot but most times she hits a wall or crash lands. Its frustrating when I bought her the pet store cut her wings because they told me she was starting to coast and she was too big to be flying around a house and she would get hurt. So I was new to this breed of birds but all my other birds at home flew.. So we are slowing working with her.. After she crashes she always says"Woooo that was SCARY!!
Don't worry about her getting tired, it's normal. She just has to strengthen her muscles, that's all. As to her inability to find a landing spot, why don't you try putting perches for her all over the place. You don't have to buy commercially made ones, anything that can provide an easy reachable spot will do: branches or a piece of wood strategically placed between two objects (and they don't need to be exactly the same height -tree branches don't grow exactly parallel to the ground), the back of a chair, a stool turned upside down (I had my husband screw together two of them, one standing the right way and the other on top of it -the rungs make excellent perches for them), any type of grid, etc. I have a friend that bought an used stand for IVs and made into a wonderful stand for her RB2 and I use the metal things you put the crib mattress on as well as the side rails.
 

mindee77

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I will do that thanks Pajarita.. I just want her as strong as she can be.. My goal is to make a bird room just for them . They are amazing to watch and fall in love with.. I couldn't imagine my life without them..
 
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