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Toe Tapping and Wing Flipping

Lilyrat

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After 2 weeks of tapping and flipping I finally got Penelope to the Avian vet. Her tests results and xrays show that there is nothing wrong with her. So...it could be hormonal, molting, seasonal change or OCD. :huh: She was prescribed Gabapentin to treat discomfort.

They did give me an Eclectus feeding pie chart which is quite a bit different than what I have been doing. It has grains & nuts at 50%, leafy greens at 12-13%, orange, yellow and red vegetables at 12-13%, beans at 20% and fruits at 5%. So perhaps she has been getting too much sugar? Kinda like a kid with a Pespsi... :p
 

Lilyrat

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This morning I discovered her left leg chewed. I have put in a call to the vet.
 

Birdiemarie

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Diet charts are good as a guide but if an ekkie has a problem the chart may not apply. In my experience 50% nuts is way too much for an eckie. Ruby can only handle 1 or 2 almonds and 1/4 or less walnut a day and sometimes even with that i have to cut back.
 

Lilyrat

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I think the food chart is not right for Penelope. But as you see from my other post we have bigger issues. She is not the same bird. 3 weeks ago she talked and played, now she taps, flips, chews her feet, bites hard and not eating as well.
 

Birdiemarie

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You may want to contact this group. They helped me design a special diet for Ruby.

Yahoo! Groups

@Lilyrat
 

Begone

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Yes poor girl! :( Get well soon! I really hope that you found out what is wrong with her. :hug8:
 

Lilyrat

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Thank you...all so very much. I spoke with her vet today and she increased her medicine. Of course she thinks it could be PDD. We may have to use Celebrex if this doesn't work. She also advised not using aloe on the open leg sore. I used some anyway tonight...I think it helped. :cautious:

Last January after a trip to the vet (for mild tapping) Penelope broke several wing feathers and I had to have her clipped. Her feathers had just grown back and she was trying to fly before this unbelievable episode that we are going through now. So today I took her to a bedroom and let her crash land a few times on a bed and once she did fly around the room. It was great! She was so alert and...yes she was smiling!

I bought Aloe Detox today but I am a bit afraid to try it. I could use some advice. Meanwhile, I have decided no more seed or sweet potato (again)...I gave a little to her for the past 3 days and she is doing worse. I should have learned by now. :( It is interesting is that Penelope is favoring protein dishes over vegs and fruits.

Tomorrow we plan to fly again!

Have a Happy Thanksgiving and thank you. We both appreciate it.
 

Lilyrat

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Giving thanks...My bird meowed and said Hello. Penelope started talking again today! :heart:

Not sure which one is working...or if it is a combination but...Her meds were upped, she has had 3 days of short flying and 2 doses of Aloe Detox.
 

Begone

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Red Jasper

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Hello,
I know this is an old post but could an update be given on Lilyrat's Penelope?

I have cared for Eclectus for over 15 years and know this affliction very well.
 

Lilyrat

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Red Jasper,

I have moved my postings to the diet and food sensitivities forum. Penelope is still having issues, but I'm glad to say not as severe. Some days are worse than others. I have noticed that she twitches when she has any type of seed including millet and she taps/flips with sunflower, corn, and sweet potato. MaryNat suggests that I may be giving her too much protein, and I think she may be right - so I am cutting back on her morning bean mix to every other day.

Another BIG issue is that Penelope chewed her left leg in December. As soon as it begins to heal, she will chew it open again. Add to that she rarely puts weight on it and no longer grips with her left foot. She can walk on it and she will scratch her head with it.

All of this being said...you are familiar with this behavior? I appreciate any advice that you have.
 

Red Jasper

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Hello Lilyrat,
Thank you for the update. My initial response had I seen this post earlier would have been that with my witnessing this affliction, 9 times out of 10 it begins as a response to ingesting something that off-balances the delicate digestive system or being afflicted by an environmental cause. As you know, Eclectus are VERY sensitive. The diet of an Eclectus parrot is so difficult to balance and get 100% correct because really all we're doing is imitating something they'd only find in the wild - a certain type of fruit that only grows in their native habitats. Given this, a healthy balanced diet with lots of grains and greens seems like it would be harmless but as soon as we start putting man-made syntethic diets, pellets, chemical-laden items into their foods, the reactions begin. This is why the Ekkie diet is such a critical piece of their health.

It makes perfect sense to me that Peneleope would have gotten somewhat better after cutting back on the beans. They are VERY sensitive to protein as it can cause stimulated hormonal behavior and toe-tapping and wing-flipping behavior has been assosicated with an overabundance of nutrients. We all know that too much of a good thing can be bad and this is very ofen the case also with a too-rich, potent diet. This is why I have long ago cut back from feeding a fresh mash every night, to only 3 times per week and substitute dinner time with a dry healthy mix 4 nights. I noticed greatly that it alleviated hormonal symptoms in my males and female (I have 2 boys and a girl) and have not witnessed toe-tapping wing-flipping behavior more than a couple of times in the past 5 years. As soon as one of them exhibits this behavior I make immediate adjustments to their diet. This *always* aids in relief of these symptoms.

That Penelope is still picking at her leg, is unfortunately another issue coupled with the original issue she was having that was revealed by the symptoms of toe-tapping and wing-flipping. Self mutilation is often the next step to a bothersome foot/leg tapping in the Eclectus and can be very, very difficult to stop once the habit-forming behavior begins because then it becomes a neurological issue. It takes many months/years of therapy to help an Ekkie with this issue and I have seen so many poor children not be able to recover from this horrible symptom. Only with love, patience and time like you are giving Penelope can something like this be treated.

You are doing right by adjusting Penelope's diet to only the most natural, least aggravating ingredients. Her sensitivity levels are high therefore I would not put more than 10% protetin in her overall weekly diet. Sunflower, corn and sweet potato have been previously identified as culprits in these symptoms therefore you are right on in removing these. The Ekkie thrives on a high fiber diet so don't be afraid to include this. If at any point you start working with holistic/alternative medications ***please use serious caution*** as what may be good for one type of parrot may not be good for Penelope and could cause detrimental harm. Please always quadruple check yourself before you add anything like this.

It warmed my heart to see Penelope is doing better. <3 <3 <3

Please take care.

RJ.
 

Begone

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I really like that answer Elizabeth! :)

I hope that Penelope get well soon, and stop chewing on her leg. :heart: :heart: :heart:
 

Lilyrat

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Thank you for your response. I have just started planning out 3 days of food in advance so I can stay on track with healthy selections. But I am running out of ideas of what I can feed.

What is your "dry healthy mix?" And can you give me an example of your daily meals that you feed? And what about sprouts? It's alot of questions... :shy:

I copied what the breeder recommended, but it doesn't work for her. At the vet they gave me a food pyramid that suggested feeding mostly grains. I haven't followed that.
 

Red Jasper

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I know you want to go "all out" for Penelope and provide a smorgasboard of selections :joyful: but I promise you if you keep it simple to a select few easy and mild fresh ingredients 3 days out of the week and alternate between maybe two different mashes you will be doing yourself and Penelope a big favor. First you won't need to worry or slave over elaborate concoctions which will save you time and anxiety and secondly you will be giving Penelope's sensitive digestive system some normalcy. Our Ekkie's tastebuds differ from our own therefore what may taste somewhat :depressed: to us, might actually be well received by them. So, don't trouble yourself to a worry over what to give her. Find two or three mash recipes, and alternate each week, 3 times / week then stick with a dry dinner the other 4 nights.

Then for the dry mix, I honestly scour my health food stores for a slew of healthy cereals (read labels!), freeze dried veggies, non sulfur freeze dried fruits (only a little amount of these), puffed rice, puffed kamut, puffed wheat (those can be found in the cereals aisle also) and I often frequent this website www.aviannaturals.com for some very good supplemental mixes and mashes if I run out of ideas. I mix these in with their regular mixes / mashes for some "oomph". :p I give various nuts occasionally as treats - be careful with these as they are very high in fat and protein and need to come from a very good source. I use nuts.com for all my nut needs.... :rofl:

On their wet dinner mash, I will sprinkle some Nekton Bio Vitamins just very slightly 2 - 3 times per week but if you want to try this with Penelope be very sparing in it to begin with. What will matter most with her is to bring her to a sense of normalcy so her digestive tract and body can get used to the nutrients she's receiving and build up her immune system naturally. Giving her a too-potent diet can swing her in the opposite direction and bring on the TT/WF symptoms yet again.

What do you currently feed her? What do you give her for dinner and does she have a trail mix? Do you give her treats, and if so what are they?

Sprouting can be very good and nutritious if done correctly but make sure you are using only the highest quality sprouts and not getting them at the store because those can contain a plethora of upsetting bacteria.

RJ.
 

Lilyrat

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Here is a normal day of feeding...every day.

  • am - bean mix - dried 15 bean mix - cooked with brown rice. I add fresh green beans, organic carrots, red & green peppers and celery, a few sesame seeds and red pepper flakes. I freeze about 2 weeks worth in individual bowls.
  • lunch - fruit - A little pomegranate mixed with cranberries, kiwi, grapes and kale.
  • PM - fresh snap peas, carrots, red pepper, celery, broccoli and kale. I usually add sprouts that I make from chick peas.
  • Bedtime snack - an almond (I was giving a whole walnut - but have stopped)
About every two weeks I give Penelope some egg shell in her bean mix. And I have been using a tiny of bit of Higgins Leafy greens & herbs.

Since Saturday, I have been giving her the same meal for AM & PM every other day and she hasn't had any sprouts.

I admit I am a bit hesitant to give her cereal - but I bet she would love it.
 

Red Jasper

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Thank you for posting this. I am only going to make this suggestion for you to try. It is up to you if you'd like to try it for the sake of "resetting" Penelope's digestive tract and "blanding" down her nutrition just a little bit. You have stated that her TT/WF have improved, therefore you are definitely doing the right things for her. How about the following?

Make 3 days worth of the following recipes one week at a time. I don't like to freeze anything beyond 4 days' worth and I notice they don't like to each anything frozen too long.

(WK 1)
Breakfast - Replenish daytime trail mix. Serve some of the fruit you have listed on the side. However beware of fruits as they are very high in sugar. Moderation is key. ***Do one type of fruit per day and no more than a tea spoon full.***
Dinner MASH 1 serve 3 or 4 days - Natural, multi grain cous-cous, brown rice, just a little bit of beans (no more than 10% of the mash to be beans), very few legumes (also high in protein), green beans, org. carrots, red/green peppers, celery, peas, red pepper flakes. Add daily those veggies that spoil easily like broccoli or kale and sprouts.
Keep a dry trail mix in her cage through the day (something like the no-allergy mix from aviannaturals.com is something I'd highly recommend)
Alternate dinner - Dry mix (as mentioned before - healthy, natural cereal base, dried veggies, etc high in fiber and grain)

PM snack - 1/2 a walnut (raw, unsalted, organic) every other night and a dried unsulfured raw banana slice every other night

(WK 2)
Breakfast - Replenish daytime trail mix. Serve some of the fruit you have listed on the side. However beware of fruits as they are very high in sugar. Moderation is key. ***Do one type of fruit per day and no more than a tea spoon full.***
Dinner - MASH 2 serve 3 or 4 days - Nartural grain pasta (non-enriched), quick barley, black eyed peas, chick peas, green beans, org. carrots, red/green peppers, cauliflower, peas, red pepper flakes. Add daily those veggies that spoil easily like broccoli or kale and sprouts.
Keep a dry trail mix in her cage through the day (something like the no-allergy mix from aviannaturals.com is something I'd highly recommend)
Alternate dinner - Dry mix (as mentioned before - healthy, natural cereal base, dried veggies, etc high in fiber and grain)

PM snack - an almond (raw, unsalted, organic) every other night and a dried unsulfured raw banana every other night

(WK 3)
Breakfast - Replenish daytime trail mix. Serve some of the fruit you have listed on the side. However beware of fruits as they are very high in sugar. Moderation is key. ***Do one type of fruit per day and no more than a tea spoon full.***
Dinner - MASH 3 serve 3 or 4 days - Natural multi grain cous cous, rice pilaf, black beans, yellow/red peppers, zucchini, red beet, green beans, org. carrots, peas, red pepper flakes. Add daily those veggies that spoil easily like broccoli or kale and sprouts.
Alternate dinner - Dry mix (as mentioned before - healthy, natural cereal base, dried veggies, etc high in fiber and grain)

PM snack - a cashew (raw, unsalted, organic) every other night and a dried unsulfured raw banana every other night

Repeat starting at WK 1.

You can switch fresh fruit from breakfast to PM snack because you're using the trail mix as a base.

In a nutshell this is what you're doing:
1 trail mix (left throughout the day in separate dish)
1 dry mix (given as alternate dinner option)
3 mashes to pick from
Adding various benign items such as moderated nuts, fruits (dried or fresh) and additional ingredients to mash as you see fit.

Water - only filtered water. No tap water.

Regarding egg shell - there are arguments for and against this practice. I would omit this because of two factors: it has not been ever proven that the egg shell actually replenishes the type of calcium needed by their bodies and can sometimes cause adverse side effects and you don't know what the chickens that laid those eggs were being fed or what medications they were being given. I would substitute organic, cage free, free range hardboiled egg whites instead once per week and further down the line give her a tiny big of yolk but only after good progress is made. Remember - protein!

Notice I omitted the sesame seeds. These are OK in moderation but not every day as they are high in fat. :joyful:

High fiber is key so utilize those but omit the ones you know Penelope is sensitive to (High-fiber foods - Mayo Clinic This is a list of high-fiber foods that you can intergrate to the mashes or mixes you've pre cooked / pre mixed at any time.

What you are doing is making a BASE which can be altered or added to at any time with additional nutritious items but only after Penenlope's digestive tract is stabilized and neutralized with some very mild ingredients that should cause her no harm.

You are also omitting a meal time and instead replenishing it with keeping a trail mix available to Penelope at all times. This is ok and will alleviate your trouble over trying to find something new and interesting for her all the time. She doesn't need 3 full meals per day like humans do. You can take my advice and build upon it and just know that it's just my advice. Many others might find issue or ways to improve upon it, but I can tell you that I've worked with my children for many years using this easy food system and without slaving over a hot stove going out of my mind to keep them interested. When I first started caring for Eclectus the biggest mistakes I made were with an overabundance of foods and the stress of providing. I found over years of trial and error that simplicity is better than anything and starting with a good base foundation that is on a neutral level then keeping it interesting by adding an ingredient here or there each week is the easiest way to do this. In the wild, Eclectus eat the same things all the time every day. They cherry pick only the most pleasing fruits like figs and berries and they are tree top dwellers and rarely come down to the ground to find food.

Please let me know if any of this sounds good to you.

RJ.
 

Lilyrat

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Thank you R.J. for sharing your diet. How much of the trail mix is good for one bird? I looked at the mix you suggested on-line and I think Penelope would devour it and eat nothing else - which might not be a good idea.

I would like to try this, but it will take a few days to get the supplies.
 
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