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Birds and Sentiment

Perocore

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A curious thought...I am one who has a great interest in the capabilities of animals to experience things that are usually considered very "human" experiences (such as cognitive thinking, speech, sapience, sentience, etc), and today my sister mentioned something that caught my interest.

She noticed that her conure is really fond of a particular pair of pants, and then remembered that those are the particular pants she wore on the day she first met him. I know birds have pretty incredible memories, I've read countless articles about a bird meeting and liking a person once, and then seeing them again a year later and recognizing them. So it makes sense, to me, that Groot might remember the pants and connect them to the fond memory of meeting his new momma for the first time.

What do you all think?
 

cassiesdad

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Very interesting thought. I know birds can pick up their human's emotions. I've watched Milton react to happiness on TV. I know I've told the story before, but I'll relate it again.
Milton was adopted by us in 2010. He came with 10 pages of "instuctions"- outlining his likes, dislikes, schedules,etc. On the last page, it said "Milton adores happiness". I didn't know what to think of that- an animal reacting to a human emotion?
Well, Milton watches TV- and when the "Today Show" comes on,and shows the outside crowd shots, he starts in with his happy dance and yelling "HELLO" at the TV.
Milty's favorite is still "The Price Is Right". When the contestants are "called down", Milty's in heaven! If the contestant wins, Milty starts dancing around and does a "happy display". As soon as a commercial comes on,he calms right down. This behavior repeats through the whole show.
Milton DOES adore happiness... :)
 

Bokkapooh

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Maybe. I think birds just recognise us and like us to wear things they are familiar with. If your hair is usually down around them, a ponytail could be an evil thing. Same with wet hair, new clothes, etc. But its the same with people too. People are like this.
 

Laurul Feather Cat

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Glad to hear another person thinks about sapience in parrots. I have always wanted to explore the positives being a pet gives to parrots; it seems everyone is stuck on the negatives: the largest being they are captive animals. I am not saying I want more wild born parrots to become captive pets; but I am interested in what being a captive pet can give an animal.

Consider what being a captive animals has done to the original wolf; they became dogs with very special new behaviors which ultimately turned them into a domesticated animal and a new species. If we keep parrots long enough as pets and work at shaping their behavior and their genetics, they will turn into a domesticated animal. So what do parrots get from being a captive pet? First of all, they are protected from predators; if the human is smart enough to keep them safe from the predatory pets which may also be in the home. This is a huge advantage to the animal. Second, they are provided with food and a territory; again, a huge advantage over wild animals. Hopefully, the food is adequate for their needs and provided in abundance and is a balanced diet. Third advantage is that being a captive animal gives them the "free time" to develop their scentience or sapience. Look at Alex, Pepperberg's first parrot used in her Avian Language Experiment (ALEX). Who would have thought a parrot with the brain the size of a walnut could learn what he learned, even up to understanding the concept of ZERO or none. Had Alex been a wild parrot, he would have been much too busy fending off predators, finding food and a safe roost to do any of what he learned.

Am I saying animals are better off being captive pets than wild animals? Absolutely not. But there are parrots being kept as pets and they will be parrots in the future kept as pets as well. They are more than just cute pets and they have a lot of hidden potential inside them we can help to develop and shape into a new animal called the domesticated parrot. Opinions, anyone?
 

Perocore

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I'm not sure if all birds are capable of sapience, but I would agree the vast majority of them are. Reading some of the studies done, especially with parrots, crows, and ravens, are fascinating.

Groot, my "nephew" the GCC, is definitely capable of connecting things from different memories. I think memory is something birds excel in, which is logical because in the wild they would have to memorize flight paths and such. Groot is also funny to watch him react to my changing hair. He loves my mohawk, and when he first saw me it was red and down. The second time it was spiked up and that just amazed him. Then I recently dyed it black and he became very standoffish, but now he gets it's my mohawk, and loves it again, haha. I have to say, he fascinates me! I was talking to him and I could but see the thought pass across his face and he latched onto a specific word ("evil" in this case, hehe) and watched my mouth, then listened, then watched my mouth again as I repeated it for him. Then, just like that, he starts mimicking the sounds I'm making! I'm sure he wasn't giving it meaning yet (since I was literally just saying "evil!" over and over), but watching him latch onto language like that was pretty incredible. He also understands "please" and "thank you" now, with me teaching him "please" to ask for a seed, and him learning "thank you" of his own accord, likely by watching and listening to us.

And it's great to see others thinking about both sapience and the benefits vs. consequences of domestication! These are topics I just love to discuss, especially after I noticed unusual social behavior in domesticated leopard geckos two years ago. I look forwards to the future decades and watching how generations of captive birds change and develop as they move closer to domestication. I really am excited to learn more about their capabilities for sentience and sapience as they start losing those prey instincts, much like domesticated rats, and their evolution focuses more on the development of the mind. The social aspect is also a curious topic, because in the wild birds do not usually socialize with predators such as dogs or humans, and now we have them in captivity, and they are learning about different species and losing their fear of predators. Already we're starting to see cognitive speech and sentence forming abilities, and that is pretty amazing, because up until recently everyone was certain they only mimicked but didn't comprehend (part of why "Paulie" was such an amazing bird in the movie, hehe), and how we're learning that they can and do comprehend! I could go on about if for weeks, haha.
 

SandraK

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Maybe. I think birds just recognise us and like us to wear things they are familiar with. If your hair is usually down around them, a ponytail could be an evil thing. Same with wet hair, new clothes, etc. But its the same with people too. People are like this.
But part of the difference is that a parrot will look at you when you come in with a new hairstyle or colour and back away to think it over for a while and make sure that you are safe to approach. People are somewhat different and will tell you flat out if they like it or not - but they'll still be friends.
 

Ankou

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In the way I'm familiar with it's use, yes all birds and most other living things are sapient.
The definition normally used when talking about general intelligence is "the ability to think and reason." AKA: Problem solving.

The term usually used in fiction but being adopted outside that, is sentience. That seems to be what is being spoken about here?
Sentience is more about perceiving things, self awareness, complex thought.
Science has shown at least some birds are self aware and I'm sure everyone here knows about Alex and it being proven that they can learn, understand, and repeat our language and with intelligence and problem solving skills comparable to a 6 year old human (and emotional development resembling a permanent 2 year old.)


Anyway, while we can never know if he remembers the pants there really isn't any doubt in my mind birds can have 'favorite' things.
Could be his favorite pants, for whatever reason, and that reason could be he associates them with something very positive. And yes, birds do remember things for what feels like forever.
 

LaSelva

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Lois, what you describe as the "original wolf," in other words, the ancestor to modern dogs, began as neither pet nor captive. They co-existed with man at a time when our two species were on equal footing. They roamed WITH us. Wolves that were more docile/submissive or tame had a survival advantage in capitalizing on that relationship. Today's dogs are neotenized wolves. Although domesticated, which means altered genetically to accommodate our needs, in this modern world they still suffer form being leashed, fenced, and cooped up in the home all day. More captive than companion. Our lifestyles are evolving too and where at one point it was predominantly rural today its far more urban and compartmentalized. This creates difficulties for dogs that live with us because they are still roaming animals who need to socialize with other dogs in the neighborhood. As they once did in our suburbs. Domestication doesn't make a difference in those cases (see it's definition above) nor is it a blanket term as it has different meaning depending on species. There are plenty of domesticted animals that we know need more than a life in our living rooms can give them.

(on dogs) "Basically, two different species with complementary skills teamed up together, something that had never happened before and has really never happened since. " - Temple Grandin

And let's not forget the health/behavioral issues we've created in them (and virtually every animal we've domesticated) as a result of the process of single-trait selective breeding. Things were now trying to correct. There are dogs who do not possess the skills to interact with other dogs because we've inadvertently bred certain social-signal behaviors out of them. For example, a dog that does not know how to submit to an aggressor will get injured badly. Conversely a dog that does not recognize signals.

Parrots didn't team up with humans or come to be with us in the same way. In fact, we all know the means by which parrots came to be with us...it goes without saying that they were captured. And we know it was (and continues to be) brutal and stressful with high mortality rates. Also, its a misconception that parrots live with the constant fear of becoming prey (commonly cited as a benefit of captivity). For one, Dr. Brightsmith who is head of research at Tambopata, Peru affirms that their lifestyle affords them safety from predators Magazine Articles - Magazine Articles - What Eats Parrots? What are the major predators on parrots in the wild? . When you think about it even a bald eagle can become prey to a bobcat if it hangs around on the ground long enough over a kill. As can a vulture to a lion. Birds we don't normally associate as prey.

I can’t help but feel that Alex was stressed by the constant repetition required of scientific research... "wanna go back." And, wonder whether that stress contributed to his plucking as well as asper (which I believe he had at one point) as stress weakens the immune system through the release of the immunosuppressant cortisol. Dr. Pepperberg uncovered the intelligence that was already present in AG's and that had evolved absent of humans, as did that of whales and dolphins, or non-human primates. Because of this I find their intelligence all the more fascinating. If we knew more about their natural lives, as I wish we did, maybe we'd know what selective pressures led to such an adaptation. Pursuing this line of reasoning I could pose the question, "what's the pressure to become smart if you are provided with everything you need in life?" No challenges in life also means no need to do smart things to survive. Certainly in our human world leisure or free-time may lead an intelligent individual to invent, ponder philosophy, write poetry, etc. But we got to that point in the first place, in part, because of our physiology (our hands could create what we envisioned), language, and what we had to do to survive as a species. Consider crows, chimpanzees, and humans all invented tools. I think crows are a great example of a sentient, cognitive, and emotional bird species co-existing with us, adjusting their behavior (and learning) to survive in our modern world, all without being captive. One can Amazon search "Gifts of the Crow" for a fascinating, scientific exploration of their talents.

I think Temple Grandin PhD's books are a must read. They cover this subject extensively, particularly "Animals in Translation." Relying heavily on scientific research and study in it's exploration. As well as the implications of such knowledge on animal welfare. As, for example, knowing that any animal is intelligent should make us think twice about keeping it in a cage. In other words, if anything, all of this tells me that pets should be simpler animals with simple needs easily met. And that this would go a long way to reducing the stress that a complex animal feels being treated as merchandise.
 
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Laurul Feather Cat

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Sandra, don't confuse hard wired instincts with barriers to sapience. Birds are prey creatures an their instincts tell them any change in their environment is a danger to their continued living. Changing our appearance must really be a big mystery to young birds. The more intelligent birds learn that it is a temporary change in their human, but they cannot help but listen to those ingrained instincts that tell them change is a dangerous thing!

We are predators. They are prey. I often wonder how it is humans and parrots became friends to begin with. Then I remember how we can bend a parrot's cosmology just by isolating them from all other birds and permitting them to interact only with humans. I now find this type of "husbandry" as so very cruel; it denies them their true identity and does a real psychological torture to them.
 

JLcribber

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A curious thought...I am one who has a great interest in the capabilities of animals to experience things that are usually considered very "human" experiences (such as cognitive thinking, speech, sapience, sentience, etc), and today my sister mentioned something that caught my interest.

She noticed that her conure is really fond of a particular pair of pants, and then remembered that those are the particular pants she wore on the day she first met him. I know birds have pretty incredible memories, I've read countless articles about a bird meeting and liking a person once, and then seeing them again a year later and recognizing them. So it makes sense, to me, that Groot might remember the pants and connect them to the fond memory of meeting his new momma for the first time.

What do you all think?


It may have been a fond moment for "momma" but it was a very confusing, scary moment for the bird.

My bet would be he just likes the colour/texture of the pants.
 

sunnysmom

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Very interesting thought. I know birds can pick up their human's emotions. I've watched Milton react to happiness on TV. I know I've told the story before, but I'll relate it again.
Milton was adopted by us in 2010. He came with 10 pages of "instuctions"- outlining his likes, dislikes, schedules,etc. On the last page, it said "Milton adores happiness". I didn't know what to think of that- an animal reacting to a human emotion?
Well, Milton watches TV- and when the "Today Show" comes on,and shows the outside crowd shots, he starts in with his happy dance and yelling "HELLO" at the TV.
Milty's favorite is still "The Price Is Right". When the contestants are "called down", Milty's in heaven! If the contestant wins, Milty starts dancing around and does a "happy display". As soon as a commercial comes on,he calms right down. This behavior repeats through the whole show.
Milton DOES adore happiness... :)
This melts my heart. :heart:
 
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