Parrots are not Pets - article from The Dodo

[Sadieladie1994]

We've always had strict laws on importing species due to the risks of invasive species and illness, especially as we're a small island.

Bird flu was mainly spread by migratory wild birds as we're a big stop off point and wintering point for migratory birds from all over the world. It then spread to native birds and poultry and then to people who worked with poultry.

'the cases in western Europe in late winter 2005-06 pointed very strongly towards spread by wild birds following cold-weather influxes of birds from further east.'

Imported birds from outside if the central EU member states have always undergone strict quarantine.

In the uk A parrot was quarantined with poultry and tested positive for avian flu. The uk did bring in imports at a time the states did not.

 

[VictoriaVague]

Maybe you should follow our laws a little closer. We're losing the battle here in the states. They're putting more and more parrot species on the Endangered Species List because of pressure from the Humane Society of the United States and organizations such as PETA who do nothing for animals other than drum up money with sad commercials to force legislation such as this. They aren't helping endangered species at all, they are making it harder and harder for people to own parrots in captivity and breed parrots in captivity which is a complete and total shame because once they go extinct in the wild, if we don't preserve them in captivity, that's it. Is that what you truly want?

Prime example, the Philippine Red Vented Cockatoo. It was just listed on the ESL and not because our legislature wanted to do it but because HSUS pushed their hand. There are less than 200 of these birds in the wild and yet we have people working very hard in the US to make sure that we at least have them in captivity. They're a very neat and rare species of Cockatoo that isn't well known or well sought after in the pet community, hence not many people even want to own them but conservation efforts are in effect. By placing them on the ESL, the only thing it does is forces people wanting to sell and buy them to either live in the same state or to go through the red tape of having a permit to do so and to be breeders, so it effectively makes breeding them very hard to do and breeders no longer want to bother with it and breeding stock is much harder to come by because crossing state lines becomes harder. It does nothing to protect these birds in the wild at all.

This is how a lot of our laws here work and it's really a sad state of affairs. As for wanting all animals to be against the law to own except for dogs and cats, if you really feel that way, I'm not exactly sure why you own parrots to begin with and I can't help but feel a bit sorry for you. My parrots bring a great deal of love and happiness into my life and I would be incredibly sad if I couldn't keep that in my life. I'd be really sad if future generations couldn't share in that as well.

We have CITES regulations that monitor breeding of endangered species. It doesn't prevent breeding. Just makes sure it is done properly so not to screw up the species line. It also ensures wild birds aren't imported.

Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora controls: import and export of protected species - Detailed guidance - GOV.UK

My friend who breeds endangered captive birds has to be CITES registered and is inspected regularly.

PETA are generally despised and have no power here.

I love my parrots to pieces but I'd rather not be allowed them if it prevented the thousands of abusers and ignorant idiots from causing suffering to so many animals.

 

[VictoriaVague]

In the uk A parrot was quarantined with poultry and tested positive for avian flu. The uk did bring in imports at a time the states did not.

Quarantined. As I said, imported birds from outside of the core EU zone are quarantined and tested. Not just allowed in.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

We have CITES regulations that monitor breeding of endangered species. It doesn't prevent breeding. Just makes sure it is done properly so not to screw up the species line. It also ensures wild birds aren't imported.

Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora controls: import and export of protected species - Detailed guidance - GOV.UK

My friend who breeds endangered captive birds has to be CITES registered and is inspected regularly.

PETA are generally despised and have no power here.

I love my parrots to pieces but I'd rather not be allowed them if it prevented the thousands of abusers and ignorant idiots from causing suffering to so many animals.

I am surprised that ringnecks are not on the list as there are wild colonies in the uk

 

[VictoriaVague]

I am surprised that ringnecks are not on the list as there are wild colonies in the uk

Because they don't pose a threat to our native species. They are small localised colonies. Mainly around urban London, as it is warmer due to city microclimates and there is little competition for food. They do not survive well outside of the city.

They've existed in small colonies here since the 1800's and so their impact can be assessed.

 

[VictoriaVague]

I also don't believe keeping species in existence through captive breeding is an acceptable compromise. It is not preserving the species if the wild population becomes extinct. The very act of keeping animals captive alters their genetics over generations, so what you end up with is not that original species.

More needs to be done to protect these creatures in the wild. Captive preservation is purely selfish. So that we have these pretty animals to look at. Not for the good of the species themselves.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

@LaSelva ... I had hoped conditions in Europe would be more advanced.

They are not but with education changes are coming about slowly. Information from parrot educator, avian vet who lectures internationally, board owner I have known since the 90's who resides in the UK.

 

[cute_lil_fiend]

I never sold a puppy without references and a contract, the most important clause being that if they could no longer keep the dog it was to be returned to me...

Slightly off topic, but I've always been curious as to how such contracts are enforced, or if the are even enforceable. What's to stop an unscrupulous owner from reselling the dog and not informing you? Is this more of a "good faith" contract than anything else?

 

[VictoriaVague]

Really depends on where you mean when you say Europe. There is continental Europe, political Europe and the the European Union. Even within the EU, you have full members and not full members. And countries applying to be part of the EU. Some who use the Euro, some who do not. Some geographic European countries are still considered developing countries. Especially in Eastern Europe. Some new EU member countries have yet to apply European laws. Very confusing!

 

[VictoriaVague]

Slightly off topic, but I've always been curious as to how such contracts are enforced, or if the are even enforceable. What's to stop an unscrupulous owner from reselling the dog and not informing you? Is this more of a "good faith" contract than anything else?

I know one organisation that demands a monthly membership payment for the lifetime of your 'ownership' of the animal. If you stop paying they take the animal back. It apparently prevents flipping but not sure how enforceable it is by law.

 

[Bokkapooh]

There has been so many birds, once extinct in the wild, were reintroduced due to captive breeding. The Californian Condor being one. A black bird in New Zealand being another, just to name a few. Many birds of prey.

 

[Verivus]

Slightly off topic, but I've always been curious as to how such contracts are enforced, or if the are even enforceable. What's to stop an unscrupulous owner from reselling the dog and not informing you? Is this more of a "good faith" contract than anything else?

It isn't enforceable, at least in the US. That's why I consider all contracts to be completely bogus for both sides and gives a very false sense of security.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

There has been so many birds, once extinct in the wild, were reintroduced due to captive breeding. The Californian Condor being one. A black bird in New Zealand being another, just to name a few. Many birds of prey.

and then there are....
Endangered Vancouver Island Parrots Fly South | CHEK

And lets not talk FWS attempt at reintroduction of parrots in AZ. Of course they didn't take advice from breeders who did have insight. Some of the us breeders are helping in South America with reintroduction of parrots along with others.

Timor island area is reindtroducting lesser sulfer crested birds....the researcher did a presentation here in houston outlining what was needed for reintroduction. Unfortunately they don't get the press like some of the more aggressive animal rights orgs....and don't have their budget as those orgs don't offer any monetary support like parrot supporters do

 

[VictoriaVague]

Conservation of this kind with the aim of release is worlds apart from breeding for the pet trade. Where people breed endangered species with no intention of saving the wild populations. They will claim they are preserving the species but they are only preserving a prolonged supply of increasingly inbred captive birds. Never for rewilding. Just for the selfish desire to have the pretty thing to look at. And by doing this they destroy the bloodline diversity, so the offspring could never be used as part of a breeding programme for rewilding.

 

[Hankmacaw]

The Spix macaw, declared extinct in the wild in 2000, is now very near being released into the wild again. There are no known species of the Carolina Parakeet in captivity - so they will never be re-introduced. Scarlets are being successfully re-introduced in Costa Rica. Natural extinction and natural new species occur all of the time without any help from humans. Mother nature does go around and around with or without we humans.

I'm afraid that I don't agree with you that all humans are bad and that they shouldn't own pets. There are many, many humans who are doing wonderful things for parrots.

I'm also completely adverse to being ordered around by a governmental agency in almost all instances - so I don't think you and I have much of anything to discuss.

 

[VictoriaVague]

Natural extinction occurring, does not make human created extinction acceptable.

NGOs who inform policy are not governmental agencies. None Governmental Organisation.

And if you don't like being ordered around, then you surely dislike the laws that are there to protect you?

And I don't believe we were in direct discussion, so I'm confused by the end of your post. This is an open discussion for anyone to partake in and share their opinions.

 

[Sadieladie1994]

Laws, though should not regulate every part of ones life. Some are really intrusive.

 

[VictoriaVague]

Laws, though should not regulate every part of ones life. Some are really intrusive.

But I've not suggested intrusive ones that regulate every part of your life. But where the welfare of a living animal is concerned regulation is necessary. Just as we regulate for the treatment of humans.

Registration is not intrusive. You have to be registered to own a 'dangerous' species in this country. So why not extend that.

Owning a pet isn't a god given right. It shouldn't be as easy to acquire an animal as it is to buy a loaf of bread.

If the only way to stop cruelty is for nobody to have parrots as pets, I'd gladly accept that. The bigger picture is more important than my wishes and more important than the fact that some people are doing good things with parrots. The good of the few does not out weight the good of the many.

 

[Wildcard]

Slightly off topic, but I've always been curious as to how such contracts are enforced, or if the are even enforceable. What's to stop an unscrupulous owner from reselling the dog and not informing you? Is this more of a "good faith" contract than anything else?

They are enforceable- I represented a breeder who sued a puppy buyer under such a provision and won. Fortunately the dog had only been transferred to a relative of the buyer and my client obtained an injunction against both of them and the dog was returned. Another option would be to sue for damages. Private contracts are very much enforceable-- make sure to include choice of venue and law provisions as well as a clause that sets forth a reasonable damage amount and shifts the payment of attorney's fees.

It is true the language is primarily a deterrent but it is also enforceable.

 

[Wildcard]

It isn't enforceable, at least in the US. That's why I consider all contracts to be completely bogus for both sides and gives a very false sense of security.

My client who had her dog returned due to exactly such a provision had a very different experience. A well drafted contract is entirely enforceable and also serves as a deterrent -- most people would generally follow it because they don't want to incur the cost of defending a breach and/or a judgment for damages.