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Hagen (Living World) Toys safe?

pearljam1997

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After our recent loss of our precious baby bird Cara, I've been trying to dig around find out what caused the suspected heavy metal poisoning that took her life. I've looked into the toys that were her favorites, anything with a bell and contacted that company. Hagen, or Living World, claims they would never use anything on their products that would harm any animal, so no lead coatings or lead is used. What are your thoughts on this? Do your birds play with Hagen toys with bells?

We want to get another bird someday soon but are deathly afraid we'll lose that one as well seeing is we can't figure out why Cara was poisoned. UGH, wish it was more straight forward.
 

Shyra

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Other metals can cause heavy metal poisoning as well. There's zinc which can be really bad and a lot of commercial toys use it to save money. Really unless it's nickle plated with the plating still in like new condition (no chipping, flaking, or discoloring) or stainless steel it can cause metal poisoning.
 

MyAussieFriends

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I don't have any hagen brand toys, but I do know they are a trusted brand. I buy their living world seed mix for my flock without any problems.
 

jmfleish

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You can do one of two things, one do a necropsy. Two have the toy in question tested. You could do both. Paints are well known for having lead in them, so there's a good place to start. I haven't seen your thread on the symptoms that your bird had but if it was a quick death and there was throwing up, it could be lead. The only way to know for sure is necropsy.
 

lotus15

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Even very reputable bird toy companies don't use safe metals all the time with their toys. Some use brass, zinc, galvanized, etc. I went a little nuts about metals a few years ago and contacted pretty much every major toy company about what types of metals they use and almost none used exclusively nickel-plated or stainless steel-- generally only the small hand-made toy companies by AA vendors.
 

pearljam1997

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Necropsy is no longer a viable option as we had her cremated already. But I am willing to test the toys that she played with for lead and such. As for paint, not sure where she'd have come in contact with paint other than her cage which is porcelain coated. But maybe there's lead in the porcelain coating?

jm her symptoms were not really quick per say. Back in April or so she went through a molt and just when we thought she was done it continued into her having bald patches. We thought it was her food so we switched to what we thought was a good brand food, Tropicana, only to find out it's not the best out there. Anyways, other than the missing feathers she was a happy clam. Through May/June she had two days that we distinctly remember her being very sleepy but she always perked up the next day and it was literally only those two days. We decided after doing more research on pellets that Roudybush was the best and had switched her about two weeks before bringing her to the vet for a check up. She at this point had lots of pin feathers in the bald areas and even those were slowly closing in. We brought Cara in on July.31 where they checked her over, discovered she was vitamin A deficient and also was anemic. They did a full blood panel and everything came back ok. They had trimmer her talons that day as well and we noticed in the evening while she was playing that she was having a hard time hanging onto things and kept falling, well the next day she was in sad shape, she was very very tired. We figured it was from the stress of the vet visit and gave her a day. Saturday she still had not improved so I called the vet and they thought maybe we triggered an infection and so we put her on Baytril. Well later that evening I noticed her left wing drooping so assumed she had hurt it somehow when she fell. Sadly it was August long weekend here and we had to wait till Tuesday to get pain meds for her. During this time she'd continue to sleep lots but would eat normally and have wakeful periods throughout the day. On Tuesday we put her on Metacam but didn't see a whole lot of improvement. We brought her back in that Thursday, Aug.7 and it did seem her wing was injured so we left things as they were since they needed to heal. By Monday Aug.11 she wasn't doing well at all, now her eating habits were dwindling, although she maintained her weight somehow, we brought her back in and couldn't find any reason for things to be as bad as they were. The vet hadn't suspected heavy metal poisoning because she wasn't vomiting and normally it's really quick. Well by Wed morning she had taken a turn for the worse, we quickly rushed her in where they crop fed her and watered her. They ran blood work to find out that her bone marrow had gone into suppression and that she wasn't producing white or red blood cells and had no clotting factors. All of which point to heavy metal poisoning. Sadly they couldn't get the meds needed to treat it till the next day, they gave her her first dose in the afternoon but it was too late, she passed that evening. For all we know she was just sick, cancer maybe but when you google parrot bone marrow suppression the one thing that comes up is heavy metal poisoning. I now wish we had had tested her blood for it but can't live on the what we could have's.

So there's our story of how it all went. Nothing in her cage was chipping or peeling. Although she loved to chew on her perch when we weren't home but wood you think would be safe.
 

jmfleish

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Can you post pictures of the toy you might suspect? I think that Hagen has a few that are painted, that's why I thought lead in the paint. More than likely, any metals on a toy are not going to be lead but could have a form of zinc in it. What you're describing doesn't sound like lead poisoning but anything is possible. Lead poisoning is very quick...a day or two at best and you will generally see lethargy and possibly vomiting but not always. I guess you can't really rule it out. Zinc doesn't usually kill quickly but once again, you see lethargy, weight loss, possible vomiting. If she was getting zinc from a toy, it would probably take months to get sick from it unless she was really going at it. You can test the metal parts of toys for zinc by going to a home improvement store and getting some muriatic acid in the garden section. Do the test outside with a q-tip and just a little bit of acid. Wear gloves to ensure you don't get any on yourself. If the metal turns black and smokes, it has zinc in it. That doesn't mean that she had zinc poisoning though, it just means the toy you are dealing with is made of zinc.

Like Coco, I had a zinc scare several years ago and went through test after test after test with my Cockatoo, Reggie. I never found the source and now question whether he just has abnormally high zinc levels or if he really did suffer from HMP. He's still alive and kicking but is bald. I've been told over and over again that feather picking is not an indication of HMP.
 

pearljam1997

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I'll try to get some pics later today or tomorrow. Might just have to pull it off the internet as hubby was angry and I think threw some out. :huh: None of the toys were painted though, those we stayed away from. And we'll definitely test what we have left here. Any thoughts on the cage though? Porcelain coating?
 

jmfleish

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What brand of cage was it? I don't know that I've ever heard of a porcelain coating. Most cages are powder coated and the lighter colors have to have some degree of zinc in them to get the lighter color. If you don't see any missing coating, I don't know that I would worry about it but if you do want to get it tested, you can send a scraping off to LSU. Here is the URL for how to go about getting a sample, where to send it to, and how much it costs if you decide to go that route:

http://www1.vetmed.lsu.edu/LADDL/Guidelines/Guidelines PDF Forms/item47462.pdf
 

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Go over that cage with a magnifying glass and see if there are any tiny spots of paint missing. Most all cages come out of China and we already know what their track record is with lead in their paint.
 

lotus15

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Like Jen and Renee said, if it's the cage paint, then it could be either lead or zinc. I'd definitely check the cage very carefully for any spots where there might be chips or nicks. Do you ever see her chewing the bars at all?
 

jmfleish

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We bought her cage from a big online retailer, the brand they said is PAWHUT. Here's the link to what we bought, it clearly states that it's non toxic and bird safe which is why we bought it. Metal Bird Cage Wire Parrot With Stand 26"X26"X61" Play TOP | eBay
Unfortunately, what they say doesn't mean anything these days. There are certain levels for lead and zinc that are considered acceptable. If you want to know for sure, if you find any missing paint on the cage at all, I would follow the directions on the URL that I sent you and have it tested. At the very least, you would know for sure whether or not the cage is safe and maybe save another bird if it isn't by letting others know and you would know should you ever decide to get another bird.
 

pearljam1997

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Yes we'll definitely be having the cage tested no matter what. While our son is eager to get another feathered friend I just can't until we know things are safe on our end first. I'd never forgive myself if this happened again. We miss Cara so much. She wasn't much of a bar chewer but will go over it with a fine toothed comb and will have it tested.
 
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