Free Flight.. is it frowned upon?

[Latency]

Kiwi isn't food-motivated or praise-motivated, she's a flock bird. She will recall and she will follow us around, but she doesn't do it for food or scritches, she does it to be near everyone. She's familiar with outdoor flying already, she doesn't like to go very far at all. And if I were to walk a few feet away from her while she is on my boyfriend she would flock-call to me. She would fly to me if I had Loki. Plus when she's outside she's so happy. She sings and looks at everything and is clearly very excited. I love seeing her like that. So like mentioned above, I have no doubt in my mind that she would stay near us and if for whatever reason she landed elsewhere she would be flock-calling to us or Loki.
And of course, if something crazy happened and one of them got hurt, I wouldn't go crying for sympathy because I know id get a bunch of 'I told you so' etc posts. So that definitely wasn't something I planned on doing.

Doll- I would love to buy some land and fence it in, with a fancy stainless mesh canopy and everything! Haha. Maybe even one of those steel garage/warehouse type buildings that they're selling these days. But until I win the lottery that will always be nothing more than a dream, sadly.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Ive been friends with Mare since she left the forum. We keep in contact on FB.


Mare does the same thing as quite of cockatoo owners do here in WA.

There is a guy with 18 rescue M2s who allows them to free fly in northern WA state. All on his property.

Cockatoo downs, a cockatoo rescue, free flies all her rescue cockatoos on her property.

Mare does the same. On her property.

They arent like conventional free flight people. But what they have in common is that they live in wilderness on huge acreages of land.

I used to be dead set against this. However once getting to know Mares method and know her more personally and know Amigo. I felt good about it.

These birds view the wild as their cage. They develope a great sense of security at where theyre at. They are very territorial of their space. Unlike Michael's birds who are dependent 100% on Michael.

Amigo forages on the nut trees on Mares property and comes to Mare for food and water too.

I honestly am not sure if free flight is the correct term for people who's birds live this lifestyle. Maybe a better term is just plain freedom?

 

[Bokkapooh]

They come back to their people because theyre greatly bonded to them, they dont come back just fornfood and water (all which Amigo, Mares cockatoo, could already recieve most of the year around).

This is also different from most free flighted birds because they HAVE property to love on and get to know.

A regular free flyer does this on an open field. Not at their homesm which all the people I've mention do. At their homes. So the birds know the area and feel at home.

 

[Shyra]

Those people who decide to do the free flight have every right to make that decision for whatever reason. If something goes wrong and the bird is lost or injured, how can you expect sympathy from those here who are against it when you knew the risks beforehand? Reading posts from members whose fully feathered birds somehow got loose outside, became injured from flying into windows, ceiling fans or injured from other pets makes me angry because all of this could have been prevented.

Gypsy are you implying that if the bird's wings had been clipped this couldn't have happened? If so I strongly disagree with you. Clipped birds get lost as often as unclipped birds and have just as many problems. We had a cockatoo that was majorly clipped and he still could fly across the room to attack my husband. Clipped wings didn't slow him down at all. I've also known people with greys who thought that clipped wings would keep them grounded only to have some wind lift them high into the trees. Clipped wings can also be dangerous for a lot of birds for several reasons. For one they can not fly away from danger such as a cat or dog. Greenwings are heavy bodied birds and having them clipped can be a health hazard. When I got Gandalf he would startle easily and try to jump or fly off when he was spooked. He would come down and hit the floor so hard that I worried he would break his keel bone. A lot of birds have had fractured or broken bones due to being clipped and falling hard. While I do believe there is a time and place for clipping birds, it can also provide a false sense of security which creates even more danger for the bird.

 

[Bird_lover6]

I would never free fly a bird outside unless it was something like a raptor that was trained to hunt or a much larger bird that was in its natural habitat and would have a chance of finding food for survival.

Sure... I LOVE the idea of training a raptor someday, even though I know it will never happen.

BUT my little conure? No way. I think sometimes we are "more" in love with the glorious idea of free flight for our birds even more than the birds would actually love that experience. Sure, it would be awesome to see Sage fly, but unless he has the freedom to fly and fly and fly....what's the point?

ETA - Reading about Mare's bird (I wasn't here back then), I could support something like that. It does seem to be different from most experiences I read about.

 

[ratgirl]

Those people who decide to do the free flight have every right to make that decision for whatever reason. If something goes wrong and the bird is lost or injured, how can you expect sympathy from those here who are against it when you knew the risks beforehand? Reading posts from members whose fully feathered birds somehow got loose outside, became injured from flying into windows, ceiling fans or injured from other pets makes me angry because all of this could have been prevented.

This is just me, but I would never 'expect sympathy' from anyone if anything happened to my bird, whether due to free flight or otherwise. I do hope that if is due to any kind of mistake, that I would have the guts to post about it, and that others could learn what not to do. And take whatever beating comes my way.

Things happen, to clipped, flighted, or free flighted birds. Free flight makes up the minority, and doesn't account on it's own to that many losses. I'm sure the number would go up if the number doing it increased, especially since many people get swayed to do it by the likes of Michael 'the Parrot Wizzard' and the Womachs. Most people don't live in a good area, or have suitable flight candidates.

A loss is a loss. I know of birds stepped on, poisoned, killed by pets, by toys, etc. etc. etc. Most are preventable. We can all only learn and try to look at our homes with a critical eye, not unlike parents of small children. Still, stuff will happen. I hope that we can all be humane enough to learn without heaping too much shame and guilt on the person it happened to.

 

[ratgirl]

Here are some of the threads that I remember.of hers.Amigo is getting some training, today. | Avian Avenue Parrot Forum

Wow...I had to stop reading the pressure washing one :-(

I would have to agree that this woman is lucky IF she's still got this bird. Not at all what I would recommend for flying a bird. I had never heard the distinction between flying free and free flight, but I think I get it. I wouldn't do it, but it is her bird.

I would recommend if anyone has an ideal candidate, and a place to fly, AND the desire to do it, that they try to apprentice with someone who does free flight in a manner you deem acceptable. I do intend to offer training on a VERY selective basis to people interested, but there will be really rigorous requirements and screening. It's not a game, or an ego boost. It's a lifestyle, and it doesn't happen over night.

 

[ratgirl]

Ive been friends with Mare since she left the forum. We keep in contact on FB.


Mare does the same thing as quite of cockatoo owners do here in WA.

There is a guy with 18 rescue M2s who allows them to free fly in northern WA state. All on his property.

Cockatoo downs, a cockatoo rescue, free flies all her rescue cockatoos on her property.

I don't know Mare, but I do know Andrew and Chris Shank of Cockatoo Downs. I think Andrew has more than 18 M2's now, and yes, he does fly them and doesn't really have recall or train them. He's successful, but it's not my style. First of all, he's got a whole gob of COCKATOOS! SHUDDER!

Chris Shank is NOT a rescue. Most of her cockatoos were bred by her when she used to breed. She also has a unique set up, but she DOES train her birds. She also offers periodic retreats and training seminars at her place. I've been involved in several of them.

I don't know what you mean about 'huge acreage of land', but none of us have what I would consider large property. Chris has a few acres at best, Andrew might have an acre, and I live on an acre and a 1/4. Chris is surrounded by a lot of farm land, Andrew has sort of a neighborhood, and mine is sort of mixed, with houses, trees, etc., but no busy road. I live on dead end dirt road. I'm not just an A to B flyer, I do let my guys hang out in the yard. But I am working to get really reliable recall when I want it, even if I send them back to play after they come down to me. Some people are much more structured. It depends on your comfort zone, I guess.

 

[Bokkapooh]

I knew Chris Shank used to breed but I also thought she took up rescuing?

And what I mean of "huge acreage of land" is that they had a lot of un-inhinhabited space, they can fly their birds right outside their homes.

Andrew may only have a couple of acres, as well as Chris and Mare, but they have hundreds of more surrounding them. They arent living in a busy-living neighborhood.

You may want to read more of my posts. I have free flied before, when I lived on 5 acres of land (1 acre of personal property) where I could free fly Gra, my scarlet macaw(she sadly passed away due to heart issues 5 years ago). I know you dont have to free fly on huge properties but its better to free fly in an open area where you can see your bird fly and within adequate range to properly be heard/be seen signalling for recall.

Im 100% pro free flight. I would do it to this day but, as you said, it is a lifestyle. And I dont have any birds suitable for it since Gra's passing.

 

[macawpower58]

Mare is my hero. I love her courage in allowing Amigo to live the life he has.

Yes, she may one day lose him. Yes, it would break her heart. I'm thinking Amigo would say the risk is worth it, to live his life free.

I wish I had her courage, and of course, a place to be be able to offer such a life for my birds.

 

[Bokkapooh]

Mare posts some amazing photos of Amigo. I just adore them both.

Amigo is truly a happy happy bird. He is constantly displaying happy-cockatoo-territorial displays on his outdoor trees. Super jealous that I cant do the same right now.

 

[JLcribber]

It just depends on what you post Ashley. It's all about qualifying and backing up what you say. How you've achieved what you've done and the steps you've taken to learn free flight before attempting it. etc. etc.

If you're just going to post how you opened the door one day and thought let's fly the bird in the yard. Expect to get jumped on. One thing is for sure, if you put your experiences/opinions out there you are going to get opinion from "ALL" sides. As it should be.

For example:

I would probably harness Loki because he's the one I'm concerned about spooking and flying off. And kiwi will stay close if we have Loki harnessed to us.

This reads like you've never done it before. Which means you need to a lot of research and get some real training from a professional.

 

[ratgirl]

They come back to their people because theyre greatly bonded to them, they dont come back just fornfood and water (all which Amigo, Mares cockatoo, could already recieve most of the year around).

This is also different from most free flighted birds because they HAVE property to love on and get to know.

A regular free flyer does this on an open field. Not at their homesm which all the people I've mention do. At their homes. So the birds know the area and feel at home.

This whole thing about 'bond' is tricky. Of course we all have a 'bond' with our animals. And partly, that IS because we provide them food, water, and shelter. But most people aren't asking their animals to earn any of it with behaviors. And there is nothing wrong with that. But...research has shown that most animals, people included, enjoy working for at least part of their food. When you think about it, money is just a way to get all of those things for us, so it's the same.

Most birds do not want to fly off and get lost. But it's the reality if they suddenly find themselves outside, scared to death, no familiarity with the landscape, and poor flight skills. They usually go UP, and quite a distance. Then, they land somewhere, out of breath, exhausted, freaked out, and then sit quietly and try to recover. By then, who knows how far they went? A bird that isn't necessarily a free flyer, but is taken out frequently to an aviary or even walks around in a carrier, with good flight skills and trained recall, is much easier to recover. They WANT to come home. They don't just fly away on purpose.

Food is just a tool to teach behaviors. I do not agree with withholding food to any kind of deprivation to train animals, other than keeping favorite treats out of the usual diet to train, and possibly training before meals when they have a good appetite. I also have no problem with people who use the entire diet to train behaviors during the day, as long as the animal gets the entire diet in that day. My animals do not have troughs of food available at all times, but they get to eat as much as they want at meals, and they get the treats they love during training. I usually feed my macaw before he goes out to fly, because I want him to have all the energy he might need out there.

At this point, my macaw has only flown at my house, and at Cockatoo Downs last summer. But eventually, I want to be able to fly him in other locations. But you work up to those. I will continue to pick safe areas, and add other distractions as he masters the ones before. Just like training any other animal at liberty.

 

[Latency]

This reads like you've never done it before. Which means you need to a lot of research and get some real training from a professional.

I appreciate the feedback.

If you read all my posts(this thread is actually a few months old if I remember correctly, I started it quite a while ago.) then you'll see that I have done this before, with my two conures. It just has been a while. I stopped for the winter because it was very cold this year and I myself hate cold weather. (There's a reason I live in Texas!)

I haven't had any "professional" training, but I have worked with my two birds extensively. The only reason I would harness Loki and not Kiwi is because 1) he will actually wear it, unlike Kiwi. 2) He did not handle the 'startle training' as well as Kiwi, and I do not trust him to remain calm if something should spook him. 3) Having Loki on a harness gives me an 'anchor' to encourage Kiwi to recall on command. She is not food motivated and would listen for Loki's flock call before she would listen for us calling her name.

I could type the same thing over and over again, but I guess it all boils down to the fact that I know my birds and ultimately it's up to me what I trust them with. I don't plan on being reckless and irresponsible with them, this is for their enjoyment, not mine. I appreciate all the responses I've received, and though I don't know when/if I will free fly again, whatever choice I make will be my responsibility entirely, and I will have no one to blame but myself if something should happen. If I decide to fly them I will post here about how it goes. Thanks everyone.

 

[Bokkapooh]

This whole thing about 'bond' is tricky. Of course we all have a 'bond' with our animals. And partly, that IS because we provide them food, water, and shelter. But most people aren't asking their animals to earn any of it with behaviors. And there is nothing wrong with that. But...research has shown that most animals, people included, enjoy working for at least part of their food. When you think about it, money is just a way to get all of those things for us, so it's the same.

Most birds do not want to fly off and get lost. But it's the reality if they suddenly find themselves outside, scared to death, no familiarity with the landscape, and poor flight skills. They usually go UP, and quite a distance. Then, they land somewhere, out of breath, exhausted, freaked out, and then sit quietly and try to recover. By then, who knows how far they went? A bird that isn't necessarily a free flyer, but is taken out frequently to an aviary or even walks around in a carrier, with good flight skills and trained recall, is much easier to recover. They WANT to come home. They don't just fly away on purpose.

Food is just a tool to teach behaviors. I do not agree with withholding food to any kind of deprivation to train animals, other than keeping favorite treats out of the usual diet to train, and possibly training before meals when they have a good appetite. I also have no problem with people who use the entire diet to train behaviors during the day, as long as the animal gets the entire diet in that day. My animals do not have troughs of food available at all times, but they get to eat as much as they want at meals, and they get the treats they love during training. I usually feed my macaw before he goes out to fly, because I want him to have all the energy he might need out there.

At this point, my macaw has only flown at my house, and at Cockatoo Downs last summer. But eventually, I want to be able to fly him in other locations. But you work up to those. I will continue to pick safe areas, and add other distractions as he masters the ones before. Just like training any other animal at liberty.

I absolutely agree with you post.

I however know from my experience with my cockatoos. They arent food motivated like my macaw is. And all the people I spoke about were people with cockatoos who use their bond and cuddles and touch as a reinforcer. Thats what I meant by using their "bond".

I need to edit: Last I knew of Andrew, he didnt use food as a reinforcer for his M2s. Not sure about Chris. But Mare does not use food as a reinforcer. Just uses Amigos mate-like bond as a reinforcer.

 

[Gypsy]

This is just me, but I would never 'expect sympathy' from anyone if anything happened to my bird, whether due to free flight or otherwise. I do hope that if is due to any kind of mistake, that I would have the guts to post about it, and that others could learn what not to do. And take whatever beating comes my way.

Things happen, to clipped, flighted, or free flighted birds. Free flight makes up the minority, and doesn't account on it's own to that many losses. I'm sure the number would go up if the number doing it increased, especially since many people get swayed to do it by the likes of Michael 'the Parrot Wizzard' and the Womachs. Most people don't live in a good area, or have suitable flight candidates.

A loss is a loss. I know of birds stepped on, poisoned, killed by pets, by toys, etc. etc. etc. Most are preventable. We can all only learn and try to look at our homes with a critical eye, not unlike parents of small children. Still, stuff will happen. I hope that we can all be humane enough to learn without heaping too much shame and guilt on the person it happened to.

You are a courageous person if you posted that you lost a fid. If it happened to me, I would be too embarrassed.

 

[Heather F]

I have really enjoyed reading the recent threads on this topic, which have remained largely courteous and very informative. Free flight isn't something I would ever consider with my little green cheek, living where I do in a big city and him being such a nice snack size for a hawk or falcon. But I respect those who do so responsibly and carefully, who have been so informative about how they work to minimize the risks of providing this kind of enrichment and being very clear that it is not for everyone.

 

[Latency]

Gypsy, if I lost one of mine, I would be heartbroken, but I would want others to know exactly what happened also, so that maybe I could help prevent it happening to somebody else. So I understand what ragirl means. Having a fid hurt/lost/anything bad happen to them is terrifying and heart wrenching, and not something I would wish upon anybody. I just do what I (reasonably) can to keep mine safe and hope others will learn from my mistakes, should something happen.

 

[ratgirl]

I absolutely agree with you post.

I however know from my experience with my cockatoos. They arent food motivated like my macaw is. And all the people I spoke about were people with cockatoos who use their bond and cuddles and touch as a reinforcer. Thats what I meant by using their "bond".

I need to edit: Last I knew of Andrew, he didnt use food as a reinforcer for his M2s. Not sure about Chris. But Mare does not use food as a reinforcer. Just uses Amigos mate-like bond as a reinforcer.

To answer someone else's question, no, Chris doesn't rescue. When she lived in CA, she had a friend who lived on the property who did.

Anyway, as far as I know, Andrew doesn't really train his guys. They just fly in their home turf. I'm not sure how his neighbors feel about that, and it can be tricky. He does have a picture of one of his M2's that went down a neighbor's chimney and emerged covered in soot! A guy I know in Yakima had problems when his Too kept chewing up his neighbor's hose. I know that Chris had some serious problems with neighbors in CA.

Chris's birds will do behaviors for treats. In some ways, she gets them in with their dinner meal. Anything that is still alive is 'food motivated', but I know what you mean. Sometimes you have to either withhold favorite foods, or train before meals for them to be interested in food as a reinforcer. Like if I just ate, I probably won't work for hamburgers, but I might still be interested in a chocolate truffle

Many birds will work for things like scritches, toys, play, etc. I think it's totally underexplored with birds. But basically you use what works.

But a note here, I personally think it is wrong/undesirable to let a bird form a mate like bond with a human. We are NOT their mates, never can be, and especially with cockatoos, males in particular, I have seen really serious behavior problems down the road with people that let that happen. Attacking other people, or even the preferred person, feather destruction, all kinds of things. Egg laying in females. Not pretty. My birds are my friends and companions. The like me, or even love me, but not as a sexual partner or mate.

 

[JLcribber]

But a note here, I personally think it is wrong/undesirable to let a bird form a mate like bond with a human. We are NOT their mates, never can be, and especially with cockatoos, males in particular, I have seen really serious behavior problems down the road with people that let that happen. Attacking other people, or even the preferred person, feather destruction, all kinds of things. Egg laying in females. Not pretty. My birds are my friends and companions. The like me, or even love me, but not as a sexual partner or mate.

Especially cockatoos. Especially males.