hemochromatosis (Iron Storage Disease) in omnivorous Softbill birds.

[CatsNbirds]

Hello again everyone ,

I have been provided with and found many great articles on hemochromatosis (Iron Storage Disease) in Softbill birds. I just want you all to look at some of the articles I have read and tried to understand: http://www.nashvillezoo.org/piciformes/pdf/iron_storage_disease_softbilled_birds.pdf , Hemochromatosis: Iron Storage Disease , Iron Storage Disease / Hemochromatosis: Causes, Symptoms and Treatment , and Ontario. Iron storage disease (hemochromatosis) in a mynah bird .

Now, having read the above and tried to understand the articles, I have more questions. I know what a surprise . Okay, seriously now, those articles do not really cover the omnivorous Softbill birds like Corvids. This year, I will hopefully be getting a Corvus albicollis (White-necked Raven) of my very own (I put down a deposit, but very late, so I am hoping for a male chick this year from The Corvid Ranch)!

The breeder said that I do NOT have to be overly worried hemochromatosis in my new pet. He said since they are omnivores and eat meat/carrion in nature, this disease is not a real big worry. But, any captive exotic animal (I have owned exotic cat hybrids in the past) has different diet requirements in captivity then in the wild. Of course I worry anyway . I will say that from the articles I have read, it does not seem like a major worry, but I still want everyone's advice.

Thank you all for reading and responding .

@Bailey @Birdbabe @expressmailtome @gibsongrrrl @Greycloud @VictoriaVague @waterfaller1

 

[Birdbabe]

Honestly, I've never heard of this, even at the wildlife rescue,,,,we deal with lead problems mostly. But if you feed your Raven pretty darn close to his natural diet and consult with the breeder on they feed the Ravens, then you shouldn't be too worried. Its great to educate yourself though. I'm sure your not gonna let him eat bad things.

 

[expressmailtome]

I am sorry but I do not know. I would probably err on the side of caution, however the breeder has much more experience than I do.

Matt

 

[CatsNbirds]

Honestly, I've never heard of this, even at the wildlife rescue,,,,we deal with lead problems mostly.

Until I became interested in acquiring/owning my own pet Corvus albicollis (White-necked Raven) I had not heard of hemochromatosis or Iron Storage Disease in Corvids myself. I had only heard of lead poisoning, since I am licensed wildlife rehabilitation.

But if you feed your Raven pretty darn close to his natural diet

I am having a fairly hard time, finding a wild Corvus albicollis's (White-necked Raven's) diet. If you want, I can post the few websites I have found. Then, you can critique them for me if you want. Otherwise, I am not going to bore anyone to death .

and consult with the breeder on they feed the Ravens,

O I have . It is just that.....he makes it sound so easy and I am "gun shy" of that. Having owned exotic hybrid mammals. Meaning, breeders/rescues in SOME cases, definitely NOT all cases, make an animals care and feeding "simpler" then it actually should be. I have learned a LOT the "HARD WAY BEFORE". I do not want my new pet or myself to "go threw that learning curve" again.

then you shouldn't be too worried.

Me worry, you must be kidding .

Its great to educate yourself though.

Thank you, for the kind words. I really am. I want to do the best I can for my new pet and keep whatever is left of my sanity .

I'm sure your not gonna let him eat bad things.

Most definitely not, at least not on purpose . It is the "at least not on purpose part" that still worries me . But thank you, for the kind words of encouragement.

I am sorry but I do not know.

No need to be sorry. It is just your vast amount of knowledge on aviculture (you swear you are not a scientist/ornithologist right ), I figured you would have some advice for me.

I would probably err on the side of caution,

Yes, me too. Though, I think that I am becoming paranoid over the health issues .

however the breeder has much more experience than I do.

The breeder has more experience then me too. See above please, as to why "I do not completely trust any animal breeder". Please, give me your thoughts.

@Amy Pierce , @Naomi , @CrystalLeo . Since you all live in Africa and the species of Raven that I want to acquire is originally from Africa, maybe you can all help me with my various questions on various threads?

Thank you all for reading and responding .

 

[Amy Pierce]

@CatsNbirds I don't know a huge amount about White Necked Raven, but I do know I see them all the time, even in my garden. They are really considered to be really tough, often cheeky birds, and will hang around dump sites for easy pickings. I don't often see them in town for example around parking lots, which I think are more mynah/starling territory, but they are pretty common in the more rural areas. I will do some more research though regarding your questions, maybe I can find some good, local info for you

 

[CatsNbirds]

@CatsNbirds I don't know a huge amount about White Necked Raven, but I do know I see them all the time, even in my garden.

I am SURE you know more then me . Wow, that is so cool, that you see them in your garden. Might I ask, what are they eating in your garden? I mean, besides what they aren't supposed to be eating !

They are really considered to be really tough, often cheeky birds, and will hang around dump sites for easy pickings.

It is "funny" you describe this species in that verbiage. Only because minis the word cheeky, that is how the breeder described them. So, I guess it must be true !

I don't often see them in town for example around parking lots, which I think are more mynah/starling territory,

O okay, in America that is where you would see our Corvus brachyrhynchos (American Crow). You might also see Sturnus vulgaris (European Starling). However, I am sure the Starlings you see ARE WAY MORE exotic!!!!!!!!! I can't imagine living in a place that you got see wild Mynah birds of any species and have home internet access too. Your location sounds like a dream .

but they are pretty common in the more rural areas.

Since, they are found in more rural area's do they "spook" easy? I am sure that is a matter of "personal opinion". Hopefully, I am being clear . If not, I will gladly rephrase.

I will do some more research though regarding your questions, maybe I can find some good, local info for you

Thank you, thank you thank you and thank you again!!! Any, and I do mean ANY information is GREATLY appreciated! Also, any information on diet, I would LOVE too. If you do not mind asking, of course . I will make a thread for that as well .

@Amy Pierce Thank you from the bottom of my !

 

[Amy Pierce]

@CatsNbirds , I hope I can answer all your questions I have found a really good description on them in my monstrous bird book Just going to type out some of the info that I think you might find interesting!

First of all, from what I can tell, they do not spook easily. I think many people consider them a pest because of their stubborn and cheeky behavior. As I'm sure you already know, they are also REALLY intelligent, which I think allows them to get away with their behavior

Here's some bits of text...

"They are said to be important thieves of poultry, taking both eggs and chicks and their intelligence at this makes up for a certain clumsiness in predatory behavior. More dastardly, however, is their undoubted predilection for (possibly sickly) young lambs and lambing ewes; ravens are sch a pest to the sheep farmer in a number of areas that many are shot or poisoned" This is so sad

It also says here they are often found in "rugged" environments.

BEHAVIOR
"Almost always in pairs or family groups, but occasionally roosts on cliffs of up to 50. A fairly busy bird; presumed to have good intelligence. Subordinate at carcass to all other scavenging birds. Uses bill as a hammer to get into objects such as eggs and carcasses."

FOOD AND FEEDING METHODS
"Usually carnivorous, but probably omnivorous as it also eats left-overs picnic sites. Often at carrion. Preys on poultry and lambs; probably also on small wild animal, including tortoises"

Here's a good link as well
Natural Encounters, Inc.

I'm sure the 'diet' section in the link will be helpful to you

When I say they come to my garden, they aren't usually hanging around on the ground. But they are usually up in some really high trees, and I see them circling overhead. I think my garden just doesn't have enough to attract them, not to mention my dogs go berserk when they see a large bird in the garden But I think they sometimes find carrion on my farm, so that's probably why I see them overhead but they are always out and about in rural areas, after road kill or litter that people have thrown out (doesn't give them a very good name, but they certainly have found a useful way of keeping themselves fed and alive!!)

I hope all this helps! I'm still looking at more websites, so will continue to post if I find anything

 

[CatsNbirds]

@CatsNbirds , I hope I can answer all your questions

@Amy Pierce, I am sure you can . But seriously, anything you can/want to answer for me is great! Plus, it is appreciated beyond measure! So, yet again, thank you very much for your time and willingness to impart knowledge onto me.

I have found a really good description on them in my monstrous bird book

I have monstrous reptile and amphibian book like that. If, the bird one is anything like my reptile and amphibian one, it might be easier to copy the pages and save them on your photo bucket or just take picture's with your camera phone and post them .

Just going to type out some of the info that I think you might find interesting!

The above was so you DO NOT have to type it out, unless you really want to. I just appreciate the help . I will admit anything and I do mean ANYTHING, you want to share on this specific Raven species would be greatly enjoyed by me !

First of all, from what I can tell, they do not spook easily.

That is good to know and thank you for sharing that with me.

I think many people consider them a pest because of their stubborn and cheeky behavior.

That is how most people, in my experience at least, view American Crows (Corvus brachyrhynchos) and Common Ravens (Corvus corax ). I definitely agree that there cheeky and stubborn nature lets them get away with a LOT!

As I'm sure you already know, they are also REALLY intelligent, which I think allows them to get away with their behavior

Yes, I am sure these birds intelligence is what allows them to "get away with so much mischief" .

Here's some bits of text...

"They are said to be important thieves of poultry, taking both eggs and chicks and their intelligence at this makes up for a certain clumsiness in predatory behavior.

I guess they are highly or "would like to be/can be" highly carnivorous when given the opportunity. Now, the "funny" thing is your atlas mentions them being "clumsy". Watching the few Corvus albicollis (White-necked Raven) video's on YouTube they look "clumsy" even as adults. I had been wondering about that. I guess wonder no more .

More dastardly, however, is their undoubted predilection for (possibly sickly) young lambs and lambing ewes; ravens are sch a pest to the sheep farmer in a number of areas that many are shot or poisoned" This is so sad

I agree it is very sad that farmers kill them. The same is true for our American ones. At least, as much as is legally possible. Yet again, it appears this species has a propensity towards meat. So, I am going to guess that they are not "prone to Iron Storage Disease". What are your thoughts?

It also says here they are often found in "rugged" environments.

I shall work on making my house more "rugged" for him. But, I am not lowering the O8 (Oxygen) count for him .

BEHAVIOR
"Almost always in pairs or family groups, but occasionally roosts on cliffs of up to 50. A fairly busy bird; presumed to have good intelligence.

Glad they live in groups, I hope with proper socialization my male will get along with other people, when he is an "adult".

Subordinate at carcass to all other scavenging birds. Uses bill as a hammer to get into objects such as eggs and carcasses."

I am kinda lost there . Meaning, they are "lower" on the social ladder then caracass and other scavenging and carnivorous birds? I think it is cool that they can use there bill like a hammer to get into eggs and such.

FOOD AND FEEDING METHODS
"Usually carnivorous, but probably omnivorous as it also eats left-overs picnic sites. Often at carrion. Preys on poultry and lambs; probably also on small wild animal, including tortoises"

Now, my main question is this: do you think in captivity these birds need the same diet or do you think they need different foods with different BV's (biologal value)?

Here's a good link as well
Natural Encounters, Inc.

I'm sure the 'diet' section in the link will be helpful to you

It was indeed very helpful to me. Thank you, very very much for sharing it with me.

When I say they come to my garden, they aren't usually hanging around on the ground. But they are usually up in some really high trees, and I see them circling overhead. I think my garden just doesn't have enough to attract them, not to mention my dogs go berserk when they see a large bird in the garden

I understand you now . Before, I thought you meant like plant/vegetable garden . I failed to take into consideration, the term garden has a different meaning then I am used to in this particular case .

But I think they sometimes find carrion on my farm, so that's probably why I see them overhead

Makes perfect sense to me ! BTW, what do you farm?

but they are always out and about in rural areas, after road kill or litter that people have thrown out (doesn't give them a very good name, but they certainly have found a useful way of keeping themselves fed and alive!!)

While, it is completely true that this Corvids way of eating does not give them a "good name", it sure helps keep the environment clean and disease free . Plus, it must be true that they are "tough as nails" and "easy" to feed like the breeder says.

I hope all this helps!

To say this helps would be "the understatement of the century". I can't thank you enough for your help !

I'm still looking at more websites, so will continue to post if I find anything

Again, thank you very very much for your time !

 

[Amy Pierce]

I agree it is very sad that farmers kill them. The same is true for our American ones. At least, as much as is legally possible. Yet again, it appears this species has a propensity towards meat. So, I am going to guess that they are not "prone to Iron Storage Disease". What are your thoughts?

I don't know too much about Iron Storage Diseases. I did raise 2 starlings and a mousebird which I was told to watch out for Iron Storage disease. Once weaned, the starlings ate a variety of fruits and mealworms, which they just loved. I was also able to buy a bag of softbill food which is specifically low in iron. Obviously it is not meant to be given as an exclusive diet, rather part of a wider variety of foods. My birds unfortunately wouldn't touch it, but I only had the starlings for 2 weeks before they were weaned and taken to a pre-release aviary, so perhaps they would have started eating it had they been given it regularly.

I found a site about iron storage diseases in birds, unfortunately not specifically for a Corvus albicollis but hopefully it can help a bit

Low-iron foods are: peach, honeydew melon, skinless apple, and plum. High-iron foods that should not be given because of its vitamin C or A content are: papaya, mango, banana, squash, and skinless boiled potato. On their own, these foods do not cause iron storage disease. But given with food rich in vitamins C and A like citrus fruits, beetroot, carrots, chili pepper and spinach, they can lead to excessive iron in the body.

(I always avoid citrus fruits with my birds)


Foods that you must avoid completely are: foods supplemented with extra iron like baby food, juices and nectars, animal food, and any other commercial human food with extra iron.

Iron Storage Disease in Birds | petMD


I am kinda lost there . Meaning, they are "lower" on the social ladder then caracass and other scavenging and carnivorous birds? I think it is cool that they can use there bill like a hammer to get into eggs and such.

Yes, exactly that, they are lower than other scavenging birds In SA we have vultures that are usually the top dogs at carcass sites. With the white necked Raven being smaller, I'm sure it would be pretty easy for a big vulture to just push them out the way! Although I'm sure the ravens don't let that stop them from stealing pieces where they can



Now, my main question is this: do you think in captivity these birds need the same diet or do you think they need different foods with different BV's (biologal value)?

I think any animal in captivity is going to get a slightly different diet than it would in the wild. The way I see it (with the ravens being indigenous here) is that out in the wild, a raven is fighting every day for its survival, so some days it may have to eat something that doesn't necessarily have the rights nutritional components. In captivity, however, it is given food that probably has way more nutrition than its getting in the wild. (I hope that makes sense! ) Its like when I get baby birds, I have to be really careful not to overfeed and cause the bird to gain too much weight. In the wild, even though its parent is bringing it food every 10 minutes, its small servings such as an insect. With me, I'm feeding a formula that has ALL the necessary nutritional components, so the bird is getting more than it would in the wild.



Makes perfect sense to me ! BTW, what do you farm?

We farm sugarcane! We actually lease the farm out to another local farmer, who grows the sugarcane, but the land is still ours


Again, thank you very very much for your time !

I'm glad I could help, even if it is just a bit! I'm sorry its taken so long for me to get back to you as well, the last week or so has been very busy! I'm going to chat to a lady I know about Corvids, and see if she can't also give me some advice for you She has been doing rescue and rehab for 20 years, so hopefully she has come across a Corvid at least once

Please let me know if there is any other info I can give! I know there aren't many people around here who keep Corvids because of their 'pest' status, and the fact that they seem 'boring' to some because they are so common here In my opinion any bird is absolutely amazing, and if I could I would have one of every species

 

[Amy Pierce]

Oops, sorry @CatsNbirds , I quoted the whole thing and not just your questions by mistake I hope you can make sense of it!!!

 

[CatsNbirds]

I'm glad I could help, even if it is just a bit!

You where more then a little bit helpful. At least, IMHO.

I'm sorry its taken so long for me to get back to you as well, the last week or so has been very busy!

Please, you never ever have to be sorry, at least not to me ! I just appreciate you taking your time to help me.

I'm going to chat to a lady I know about Corvids, and see if she can't also give me some advice for you

Thank you thank you thank you and THANK YOU! Also, thank your contact as well !

She has been doing rescue and rehab for 20 years, so hopefully she has come across a Corvid at least once

Indeed, lets hope so. But, maybe for the Corvid's sake, lets hope not .

Please let me know if there is any other info I can give!

I am going to be making a post, hopefully by the weekend, about proper hand feeding of a chick/juvenile Corvid. I will be getting my bird around six weeks old. While I have bred various parrots hence hand fed various chicks (that is how it is done in the USA), feeding a Corvid is nothing like that. I have fed various native birds like Turdus migratorius (American Robin), Agelaius phoeniceus (Red Wing Black Bird) and so on. But, apparently, that is nothing like feeding a juvenile Corvid.

I know there aren't many people around here who keep Corvids because of their 'pest' status, and the fact that they seem 'boring' to some because they are so common here

People here do not seem to favor Corvids either. In fact, even my vet said: "don't you want or have any normal animals"? I was like I have four (4) DSH's. He was like yes but what about the F1 Bengal, F1 Savannah, F2 Chausie and F3 Savannah you had over the years. I was like well this is a bird. He said but its no parakeet . Keep in mind, I am in my 30's and my vet has known me since I was eight (8) years old and he is a "DOG PERSON" !

In my opinion any bird is absolutely amazing, and if I could I would have one of every species

I like some parrots, like as pets. But not that many. Since, in my limited experience with them as pets, they are very "spooky". I have always been fascinated by Corvids, so after my last early generation exotic cat hybrid died, I decided why not a Raven . I am more of a cat person myself.

Oops, sorry @CatsNbirds , I quoted the whole thing and not just your questions by mistake I hope you can make sense of it!!!

No worries . I hope that I understood it . If not, I clearly did not understand your responses as much as I though . BTW, that would be my stupidity at work, not your writing/communication style. Thanks a lot @Amy Pierce